EX1 / Ultimate Job Follow-up Part 2

Tim Naylor

Veteran
So here's the footage, a PSA directed by Julia and Scott Elliot for the Bowery Mission, an organization in NYC to help the homeless:

http://www.timnaylor.com/vid_bowery.html

Here's the frame grab to give you idea of the full rez image:

www.timnaylor.com/ex1grabs

EX1, Letus Ultimate, 720p (1280 cx 720), Nikon 17-35 2.8 / Nikon 80-200 2.8. Shots were done between 4-5.6.

A few conclusions:

The EX1/Ultimate combo is as sharp as the low cost adaptor / camcorder combination is going to get. My HVX doesn't compare in sharpness though I think it's colors are a bit richer. The EX1 codec is quite interesting. It held up much better to composite work and color correction than I was expecting. However, should be noted that I didn't have any real "codec" busting scenes (Guy in plaid doing jumping jacks in front of smoke). I did however, have some classic NYC kids in front of a fire hydrant shots and the codec handled the water without issue.

We won't rehash the CMOS issues as we all know what they are. For this style of shooting they were never an issue. Areas that really made a difference were it's half inch chip and 1280 x 720 (as opposed to upscaled 720 x 960). We opted out of 1920 x 1080 because so much of the show was in slo mo. Consistency was king.

One nice advantage is the 1.9 stop all the way through on its zoom. This gives another 1/2 stop advantage over the HVX in addition to its 1/2 chip 1/2 stop advantage. Where this became crucial was for our sunset shots. I was able to still stay at 0db with little to no discernable noise. End of the day has always been an issue with my HVX especially when the color temp really goes blue.

The Ultimate initially had play issues with the front mount but Hien knowing I was in the middle of a job FEDEXed me a new one. So far so good. I've yet to use the Ultimate on a real focus pulling job though, so the jury is still out on the mount. What I found a real relief was the back focus ring. It's quick to adjust. Loosen two knobs and twist. With the EX1's peaking, this is a quick operation. As a long time video op, I always check back focus every morning, after lunch and anytime temperature conditions change or we just finished some hectic shooting. It goes off. Anyone who's used digi primes can attest to this. You have to check them everytime you change a lens which is why AC's always order the backfocus snoot (an onset collimator).

With my still lenses (Nikon Primes and Zooms) I found myself checking back focus and making adjustments all the time. Some people here think, find infinity, focus and go. It's not that simple. Find infinity and recheck it with a close distance and midrange. You'd be surprised what you get. I even do this with 50,000.00 HD zooms. There's a reason all ENG 2/3" cameras make back focus quick and easy to adjust - because it goes out all the time. The ease of the Ultimate's back focus is a life saver, especially on a tight schedule.

Now that I've seen the footage in post, a few notes. As much as I sang the praises of the EX1's viewfinder, a few things escaped me (filter reflections, wide angle vignetting, dumasses looking into the lens, etc). I would've have caught it with an external. In hindsight, for a job like this, I'd bring the external everywhere. Other note. I love the histogram on the EX1. Just like a still camera's. It's fast and reliable.

The Ultimate's Sharpness is a thing to behold. Like glass. In fact, I may add grain to this project. It's so sharp that on several occasions I zoomed through to the end with no unusable penalty. So this is where you must be careful. When I zoomed all the way out on the EX and the 17-35, I got slight vignetting on the left corner. My GG wasn't perfectly centered and I didn't bother to center it. I never noticed the vignette until I saw it on a large monitor (again, bring you monitor if you can). Next gig, I'll center the X/Y and test the limitations on a chart. Which brings to one gripe - why not make X/Y adjustment easy, tool less and external. That is not the case with the Ultimate - you have to open it up to adjust it.

The other item is the rpm read out. It goes from 0 to 99. Since 99 is optical the best, why bother from 0 to 98. To save on double AA's? I say lose it, have one speed and just a "battery low" warning. I never used it below 99. In a 12 hour day you'll go through two sets of batts. I recommend using re-chargeables.

Concerning stop. I shot up to an 11 and experienced no grain.

Now here's the big question: Letus is developing an EX 3 relay lens. How much light will a relay eat? It would have to be significantly less the EX1's built in lens to make it worth it. I'd say it would have to be at least a 1/2 stop better to be worth it. Any less, does it really validate the extra 2g for the EX3 and 3-4g for a relay? Also, the relay's optical quality would have to be on par or better than the Fujinon's. This may be a tall order considering the Fuji's are built in mass and benefit from economies of scale.

Last thought is how much longer will the 35 adaptor market last. I'm sure since the advent of RED, PS techniks have not been flying off the shelves. At 4500.00 the Ultimate is a chunk of change. With an HVX or EX, it still puts you at least 15 grand below a full RED set up if not more. It's when someone builds the complete (you know, how the HVX or EX are out of the box) 35 chip camcorder below 20g than the 35mm adaptor is done. From another thread here, I suspect the still camera industry will make that breakthrough or one of the big three may just say, "screw it, it's time to crush RED".

Whether the Ultimate is worth it depends on you. How much use will you get out of it before it's time is up. I collect odd useless old film cameras, projectors, still cameras, etc because not only are they cool to look at but represent stages of technological history. Even on my mantle or as paperweights they inspire. Surely, the 35mm adaptor will take its place as a curiosity in the "Antique Road Show". It's just a matter of when. People will gasp when someone explains how it was used much in the way a kinescope still fascinates me.

What I'm trying to say, today's breakthrough is tomorrow's paperweight. The Ultimate fits a niche, below the red and PS but above the others. Get as much use out of it as you can. I think the window for adaptors is closing fast as RED rentals seem to drop every week and still cameras are beginning to act like video cameras.

What I love most about the Ultimate, I don't feel like there's a layer of diffusion between my still lenses and the camera. That's something I could never reconcile with my previous adaptors, especially when I'd take them off and see just how much rez you lose. None of them had the zoom through capabilities of the Ultimate. I'm not sure if it's the glass or achromat or both but it really defies logic that I'm looking at what is essentially the sharpest rear screen projection out.

That's all.
 
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Tim,

Beautiful piece and great follow up. I have to admit to wondering about the wisdom of the B4 Relay, if and when it comes out, with a $4500 price point
on top of the $4500 for the Ultimate. Cinevate is supposed to deliver their
relay at $2500. Even that is a lot of money when the results of cameras like
the EX-1 and EX-3 are so stellar. The HVX200A and HPX170 won't be that
far behind the EX cameras in sensitivity, depending on format. Not as sharp,
but still a good combination--I've done three projects with the 200A/Ultimate
and I feel the image compares well to my HDX900 and HA series Fuji HD lens.

I am really looking forward to the small form factor of the 170 while still recording in DVCPRO HD--even with the Ultimate, it's a pretty manageable rig.

I have to agree that a relay for the EX-3 is hard to justify expense wise, even
if it is very good optically. I hope Letus give serious thought to their Relay Lens
pricing. I know that I'm going to be thinking hard about the B4 Relay purchase--it's almost as much money as an HPX170 or HVX200A!
 
Thanks. I feel the Ultimate is justified in that there's nothing out there that compares. Blade? Maybe, but I'd need to do a proper shoot out. But the on the fly back focus is real big deal to me. I don't want to break out any tools to back focus while a client is over my shoulder. In fact, they've no idea when I'm doing it. Clients don't like to see people break out tools for something as simple as BF.

The expense I figure must be in the optics. The build is on the same level as the Extreme.

Regarding the green screen look, I definitely would like to find a plug in that does believable grain. FCP's sucks. Any thoughts out there.

Tim
 
I use CGM that is free with FCS. You may need to do minor tweeking and compositing, but hey, what do you want? It's free.
 
Tim,

I just got an EX-1 in for evaluation with my Ultimate. I didn't get a manual with it, could you tell me how to get to things like detail, matrix, gammas, knees, mid-blacks? Not finding that in the menu structure. Amazed how they buried some important functions in the "Others" menu.

So far, camera looks very good, edge to edge focus looks as good as HVX200A, still seeing the left side looking a touch softer than center and right side, same issue as 200A. The X, Y needs adjustment for vertical offset vs. horizontal offset of 200A.

Tiny bit more CA, but very little and only at the edges. Camera is fast and clean, good resolution. Would have liked it if LCD display could be set to be viewed parallel to body, not just perpendicular. Am I missing something? LCD does not go all the way to store position when Ultimate being used snorkel up.

I will be putting it next to a 200A tomorrow was well as my HDX900.
 
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Yeah the LCD positioning on the EX is not as versatile as the HVX. No facing out perpendicular to the camera axis. Which is drag because this allows the operator to use the eyepiece and the AC to use the LCD without having to have a cuddle.

Scene files. Damn. I totally forgot how to get into them. I set them once for maximum lattitude (because I needed post flexibility) and left it alone. But I do remember, once in it's fine and offers more options than the HVX. The speed settings menu is great. A real leap from the HVX.

Anyway, like any menu, once you order from it a few times, you know where to find things. Store position? Got me on that. You'll definitely have to futz with the x,y to even out the focus plane and maximize your wide angle. You will vignette with anything below a 20mm and the widest GG setting. If you got the time, it'd be nice to see an A/B with the HVX/EX with Ultimate. But I know those things cost a days work.

End of the day, the EX is when rez is priority. You'll dig the peaking for GG focusing as well as backfocus. Makes it so much easier. I'd like to know how much more sensitive is it over the 200A. The last item is the Sony software for importing. Works really well. You'll also love how fast an MPB eats those cards. At least 2x P2. Panny really blew it by not adopting Express 34. Also, the 35mb comes in handy for shooting lots of footage (docs). I'd love to know what you think of the codec and how much a beating it can take in post.

Also, could you compare the lowlight and red/blue frequency noise between the 200A and EX?

Were you able to remedy any mount issues you had with the Ultimate?
 
Tim,

Thanks for the feedback.

Yes, so far I am pretty impressed with how much detail, how low the noise is, how sensitive the camera is--amazing for the price! Colorimetry isn't as pleasing as Panasonic so far, but I haven't gone into the matrix or looked at scene files because I can't find them. Full raster recording, 1/2" imagers, good LCD viewfinder, albeit not in the right position for an AC, can't be stored with Letus in snorkel up.

The 35Mbps is good, but I do a lot of shooting in DVC PRO HD 720/24PN QT anyway, which is only 40Mbps, and is at 4:2:2 color space. Of course that's not 1080. I use FireStore most of the time, but I know the SxS cards transfer when plugged into a laptop at 7X, which is much faster than P2.

The front end play of the Ultimate seems to be fine as long as I retorque the alen screws in
between shoots. I do see some grain when I run at 70, 99 is best, but I find that the Ultimate goes through AA's pretty quickly--going to try Lithium AA's next.

I will try to check on exposure ratings and look at noise floor in low light in each channel
for EX-1 and 200A. I'm going to see an HPX170 next week at a dealer, but wont' get to
spend too much quality time with it.
 
Okay, found everything--button on back called "Picture Profile", has scene files, matrix, color correction, white offset, detail, skin tone detail, knee(which is overridden when selecting a cine gamma), gamma, black, black gamma. low key sat. So the camera has the handles I was looking for and easy to get to--once I knew what I was looking for.

Now I have a strange issue, when I go to change something like gain, I get a "cannot proceed" prompt. Gotta get a manual!
 
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Tim,

I had some time with the EX1 and 200A and HDX900 together today. I found the EX1 to be sharper than the other two cameras when in 1080/24p, pretty similar to the 900 in 720/24p. The EX1 was definitely the quietest camera, noise was pretty low. I turned off detail on both cameras so those circuits would not effect the outcome.

Interestingly, at 720/24p, -3db, shutter at 180, the 900 was at a 5.6-4 split, while the EX1 was at a hard 4.0, so the 900 had 1/2 stop advantage.

In 1080/24p, -3db, shutter at 180, the difference was even greater in sensitivity, the 900 was at 5.6-4 split again, the EX1 at 2.8, so 1.5 stop difference.

The 200A at 720/24p was at 4.0, same as the EX1, both at 0db, half shutter. Clearly, Panasonic had to goose the preamps to make up for the smaller imager and that explains the noisier image.

So, while not a super detailed comparison, I think I have a better idea of the
differences. I matched gammas and knees and blacks and found the latitude
to be comparable. I missed the DRS circuit of the 900 on the palmcorders to
handle big contrast ratios.

I have not compared the codecs for differences, but would have to think the 4:2:0 color space of XDCAM would be an issue in some cases, however, the full
raster recording of XDCAM EX would seem to be an advantage over DVCPRO HD.

I have little doubt that the HPX170 is the better B camera for my HDX900, due
to having the same codec and similar colorimetry/tonality, but the EX1 is a
very impressive camera, surpassing the HDX900 in 1080/24p in resolution and
lower noise. The HDX900 costs eight times as much including lens--hard to justify the price difference over the EX1.
 
yea but the hdx900's lense are so much better and easier to work with than the Letus. I love my ex1 and letus, but if I had a choice I would use the hdx900 in a second. You get what you pay for. Here here to 2/3' cameras!
 
What are you talking about? You're comparing apples to steak. 35mm adaptor w/ EX1 or any camera for that matter gives you considerable advantages in DOF. A lens on a 2/3" imager with the same FOV, gives you the same DOF as a lens on 35mm imager at 5.6 1/2.

For that reason alone, I hate shooting 2/3" for most dramatic work. Too much is in focus. 2/3" still looks like video to me. Even wide open digi primes give you the same DOF characteristics of 35mm at 5.6.

What I'd like to see is the rez difference on a chart between the EX 1 at 1920x1080 with a Nikon 2.8 Zoom or ZF (sorry, Nikon primes don't make the grade) and the HDX 900 with an HD zoom. Would the higher rez EX downgraded by an adaptor be about the same as the lower rez 900 but with a better lens?

I shoot on the HDX 900 all the time for broadcast work and for things I direct when light loss is an issue. But given the choice for commercial or dramatic, I'd take 35mm adaptor over an HDX in most circumstances.

A more interesting comparison would be the 900 with adaptor vs the EX with adaptor. I'm sure there'd be a few surprises.

Anyway, until the powers that be release a 35mm imager camcorder at a sub 15-20g price, complete and ready to shoot out of the box - adaptors are here to stay. With all the drooling on the D90 thread, you'd think they're dead already. That thread is like guys talking about the hot chick they'll never have. It's way too pornographic for me.


,
 
What I'd like to see is the rez difference on a chart between the EX 1 at 1920x1080 with a Nikon 2.8 Zoom or ZF (sorry, Nikon primes don't make the grade) and the HDX 900 with an HD zoom. Would the higher rez EX downgraded by an adaptor be about the same as the lower rez 900 but with a better lens?

I wouldn't think... but again I'm not a shooter... the EX1 has more rez than the 900?

How bout the EX3... but I can't remember all these camera specs... I know its smaller chips but would it have higher rez than the 900?

Thanks Tim in advance...
 
A relay would have to be optically as good or sharper than the stock Fujinon lens (which is quite good already). Also, it would have to lose less light. That's a tall order for manufacturers that don't mass produce on any huge scale. That Fujinon lens if it weren't sold as part of the EX1 would probably retail for at least 5 to 6 grand.

So the presumed benefits of a relay (light loss, sharpness and size) may not be economically viable. There has to be a reason, none of the low cost makers haven't made one. It gets you into a whole other world of optics and costs. I believe this has to be the most expensive part of a PS Technik and the reason movietube hasn't even ventured there.
 
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