Which camera to buy for documentary ($5000 budget)

A couple more questions...

1. What training DVD would you guys recommend?

2. The package deals they have on Ebay for the XH A1, do you think they are worth it?
 
Couple more updates--first, my panny tape rep called me yesterday and apologized--apparently he got something mixed up somewhere. The SQ tapes are not available in the U.S. They are the European/Asian version of the pro tapes. Don't know if they are somehow optimized for PAL or what, but that's what he said. So the PQ tapes are the replacement for the MQ tapes (or so I'm guessing) in the U.S.

Where to buy those tapes? Lots of places have them--tapestockonline.com seems to have the best prices I've found in my research. B&H also carries them as does pretty much everyone else. Just do a google search for the tape model number (AY-DVM63AMQ or AY-DVM63PQ) and you'll find lists of vendors that sell them and you can do your own comparison shopping.

That "other" forum is dvinfo.net. It's hard to get on that forum (took over a month for the approval process for me) but it's a really solid forum. While the dvxuser forum seems to be targeted more towards users of the dvx100/b and the hvx200/a, the dvinfo.net forum has a much broader user base, with lots of people on the canon, sony, and jvc cameras. They've also got a more extensive forum representation for things like tripods, field monitors, audio, etc. I've made both dvxuser and dvinfo homepages on my computer and I view both at least four or five times every day.

I've not used a training DVD myself, but if you want a general training DVD, I've heard nothing but praise for hollywoodcameraworks. If you want something specific to the XH-A1, then I'm afraid I don't have any answers. Unfortunately I don't know of anything similar to what Barry's done for the HVX.

I would shy away from Ebay on purchasing a camera like this--unless of course you have LOTS of experience on Ebay (which if you had, you probably wouldn't have asked that question). Ebay's great, but you can get burned and this, it seems to me, is not a good item to get burned on. Also, if you purchase from a Canon authorized dealer then you'll be sure to get a U.S. warranty and not end up with a grey market or even a black market camera. Pretty much, if you see anyone offering it for less than, say $3000, I'd be hesitant to buy there. The lowest price that Canon allows their reps to sell it for is $3300/$3299.

Hope all this helps!
 
davbeisner said:
Couple more updates--first, my panny tape rep called me yesterday and apologized--apparently he got something mixed up somewhere. The SQ tapes are not available in the U.S. They are the European/Asian version of the pro tapes. Don't know if they are somehow optimized for PAL or what, but that's what he said. So the PQ tapes are the replacement for the MQ tapes (or so I'm guessing) in the U.S.

Where to buy those tapes? Lots of places have them--tapestockonline.com seems to have the best prices I've found in my research. B&H also carries them as does pretty much everyone else. Just do a google search for the tape model number (AY-DVM63AMQ or AY-DVM63PQ) and you'll find lists of vendors that sell them and you can do your own comparison shopping.
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Hey guys, the cheapest place I've found to buy tape stock is http://www.vidinc.net/pandvcprotap.html and shipping for 40 tapes is normally $10.

You normally have to buy a min of 10 pieces to get their discount, but it's easy to go through 10 tapes quickly. Personally, I've never seen a difference in drop outs between the AMQ and PQ tapes. In fact, I've probably shot 50+ hours in HDV on my JVC 110u with PQ tapes and never seen a drop out. Now, there is a huge difference between the consumer Panasonic and PQ/AMQ tapes.

As for difference between the PQ and SQ tapes when it comes to PAL--it makes no difference. Tape is just blank canvas. You can use oil paints or water colors and get different results, but the canvas is still canvas. The differences between tape quality are the magnetic particles (and maybe the actual "tape" that the particles are on.) It's the same thing when you come to 8mm, Hi-8, and Digital8 tapes. You could record Digital8 on both 8mm and Hi-8 tapes, but it was better than you recorded on Hi-8 as they had better particles.


Matthew
 
Hi,

What kind of documentary? That might matter in that some equipment might be more suitable for taking over "hill and dale" or for hanging out of a helicopter.

Talking heads puts much less stress puts much less stress on tools than tanks in the hot and dusty desert, that sort of thing. What you are doing will certainly influence what you do it with.

It might also mean that your budget is unrealistic, but that's another thing, too.

The thread meandered to tape, which isn't a bad thing, and my take on it, after Panasonic's MQ left the building, at least as far as the USA is concerned, is that good tape doesn't have to be expensive tape. You won't get quality loss from over-the-counter tape, but I would try to go tapeless anyway - if it fits your budget.

Pay close attention to a "systematic" approach to your kit. You're going to want everything that you need to work with everything you get. While that sounds awfully obvious, at the risk of sounding simple, I'd still recommend a few moments of quite time around the kitchen table with a pencil and pad making a few notes tying everything together.

You'll want the camcorder and sound kit to fit into cases that are going to be easy to pack and carry that can sustain some impact. (After landing at Logan Field in Boston, I saw a computer I was teaching with fly out of a cargo hatch the night before teaching an Adobe software seminar; it landed in a puddle of icy water - oh, joy.) If you travel with your equipment, you need to plan for some extremes.

You'll do fine, I'm sure.
 
davbeisner said:
Pretty much, if you see anyone offering it for less than, say $3000, I'd be hesitant to buy there. The lowest price that Canon allows their reps to sell it for is $3300/$3299.
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I was considering this camera too and a I do believe $3299 was the cheapest I've seen it from a reputable dealer.

-Nate
 
I am doing a music documentary, but mostly talking heads, perhaps some performance footage, but that is a minimal part of it.
 
Macville said:
As for difference between the PQ and SQ tapes when it comes to PAL--it makes no difference. Tape is just blank canvas. You can use oil paints or water colors and get different results, but the canvas is still canvas. The differences between tape quality are the magnetic particles (and maybe the actual "tape" that the particles are on.) It's the same thing when you come to 8mm, Hi-8, and Digital8 tapes. You could record Digital8 on both 8mm and Hi-8 tapes, but it was better than you recorded on Hi-8 as they had better particles.
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Thanks Matt--good to see you on here! Thanks for the education on tape, too, by the way. So if its not a PAL/25fps thing, then why do you suppose they'd offer a tape overseas that they wouldn't offer here?
 
mikewest13 said:
I am doing a music documentary, but mostly talking heads, perhaps some performance footage, but that is a minimal part of it.
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Hi,

Nice.

I would add that sound, especially for a doc on music, would be just as important as visuals for this subject, so you need to pay a lot of attention to your audio kit. A good lav kit will set you back a grand, and a journeyman shotgun with shock mount and dead cat will be run just under that.

A lot of folks (I have been one) make a mistake by getting economical tripods. You should get the tripod that you need for the job. If you need to do a pan or tilt, get a tripod that can pan or tilt. Cheap tripods can't. Your $5K evaporates quickly if you need a smooth pan. A really good tripod head will be half your budget, a decent cheap tripod a fifth of your budget.

Pelican cases are just really nice cases to put everything in, and I use them for just about everything. I also use portable tool chest from Craftsman that isn't in production anymore that I lined with foam.

You might want to consider a small light kit, too. Tnere is a new kit out from Lowell based on their L-light that is reasonably priced (under $600) and will work nicely on a single individual in a fairly small space. It clearly isn't going to give you much wattage to light up much, but for a single talking head you should be able to have enough to do something work with. Without the extra light, you'd be pointing and shooting.

You'd likely need a lot of other stuff that would run up a lot of bills, too, to patch into performance pieces from the house audio to get the music as it is playing. A good recorder will be a blessing, there are several out right now in the sub-$500 range.

Cables and cords and adapters and the like aren't cheap themselves and don't leave home without them. Hunting up a patch cable somewhere can be a terrible experience.

As to your camera...

I don't know how much it matters. You need to be comfortable with its controls and features and be able to set it up. It has to provide the imagery necessary to tell the story. After that, you don't want it to get in the way. One gentleman suggested that the hard drive on the Sony was noisy, so that seems something to avoid. You ought to consider what your market is where the documentary is going to be viewed. That has some importance.

You might find that a more modestly price camera (perhaps a Canon HV30 or a HF100) with more robust accoutrement would give you the complete look and feel and sound in your final work without going over your budget.

Good luck!
 
On such a small budget, the HV30 might be your best option. It will not give you all of the advanced features that the XH-A1 offers but you could also get a DoF adapter and matte box and still possibly be under the price of the XH-A1. Because audio is so important, it would be good to record audio on a flash recorder because you will have more control over your audio sources especially if you do go with the HV30.
 
I've seen some nice footage from this camera... But I don't want to come off as being too amateurish with this camera, if you know what I mean.
 
mikewest13 said:
is the HV30 good enough to meet broadcast standards?
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Hi,

What broadcast standards did you have in mind? Practically any camcorder's specification will meet the NTSC or PAL (depending upon country of designation) requirements, some are easier to use than others.

Some offer sharper optics than others; some offer nice contrast or any of a host of features that have a vocal fan base.

But for what you seem to have in mind doing, you can accomplish the same quality of work with the HV30 as you can with the A1, and thus have more to spend on tools you will need to round out the project. It might not be quite as handy at times, but it will be far more economical, and it will be a lot more bang for the buck - in terms of total package for the price.

But others may disagree.
 
mikewest13 said:
I've seen some nice footage from this camera... But I don't want to come off as being too amateurish with this camera, if you know what I mean.
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I can understand your issue about looking to much like an amateur. One way that this could be solved would be a rails system and DoF adapter which could still be below the price of the XH-A1
 
speaking of DOF adapters and the HV30, there seem to be a lot of home made ones for sale along with the big boys, which way would you guys go?

And as for the broadcast standards, I'd like to have this aired on the documentary channel or others such as IFC/Showcase etc...
 
mikewest13 said:
speaking of DOF adapters and the HV30, there seem to be a lot of home made ones for sale along with the big boys, which way would you guys go?

And as for the broadcast standards, I'd like to have this aired on the documentary channel or others such as IFC/Showcase etc...
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From what your requirements are, I'm not sure you'd want to use an adapter. But there are some nice small ones that might be quite economical for the HV30. However, if the story doesn't require the tools, it would save some cash. If you go the HV30 route, look into the Letus Mini.

Certainly get a hood and filter holder as they will be useful in aiding and protecting the lens from flare and useful for holding flags and filters. A set of ND filters and a Polarizer would be nice and also some graduated density filters in tobacco, neutral, and bluish colors will come in very handy, too.

You can also add a Raynox 5050 wide for some nice wide angle shots without breaking the bank.
 
And those were all accessories for the HV30?

Would you feel confident doing interviews with a couple of hv30's?
 
If you're wanting to shoot for things like the IFC and the Documentary Channel, the HV30 should be fine. Bigger HD channels like the Discovery Channel and others only allow a certain percentage of footage (I think its like 15%) to be from an HDV camera. But the XH-A1 won't get you any better on that front either.

Mike is correct in that audio is a VERY important thing--and something that most film makers completely forget about or relegate to the back burner. Having an external flash recorder for your audio would indeed be very nice. But, if you're on a budget, it's not necessary--as long as your camera will record good audio. I know the XHA1 will, but I've not had experience with the HV30. And Mike is also correct in that a good lav system will run you around $1k. But you in an interview situation you can get by with a lot less than that. If its an interview, people expect to see a lav mic, so you don't need to spend money on a tiny countryman lav that can be hidden inside their collar. If its an interview, you can control the ambient noise a lot so you can get by with a cheaper lav system. I've got the Sennheiser ENG100 lav system and it's very nice. It comes with an on-camera receiver, transmitter, and omni lav mic for about $550. The shotgun is where you should probably not skimp--especially if you're not going to have a separate boom operator and you'll have to go camera mounted. I've heard a lot of good things about the Rode NTG-3 which has just come on the market--people are saying that it's rivaling mics three times its price. And at $1k, that's pretty good.

On the tripod front, Mike is totally right about not getting a crappy tripod. My company bought me a really crappy Bogen tripod a couple weeks ago and I can't do anything in the way of smooth pans or tilts on the thing and its driving me crazy. So get a good tripod. But do some research first--you don't have to get a $1200-$1500 Bogen, Miller, or Sachtler. The Libec LS-38 has received some rave reviews for being an incredibly sturdy, smooth, and robust tripod--and its only about $675.

So yeah, all that is to say, think about your accessories and buy good equipment. But don't think that you have to have the absolute best equipment--especially on a tight budget.

Oh, and don't forget about a computer capable of editing HDV material. You'll need at least a dual-core (preferably a quad or octo core) processor, at least 2GB of ram (preferably 4GB) and you should plan for at least 1TB of storage space in a RAID optimized for performance. You'll also need a good video card. That right there will run you minimum of $2k if you have to start from scratch on all of it.
 
Hi David,

I agree, the Sennheiser would likely do as well and save some for other things or better yet, not spend anything at all.

I've heard great things about the Libec, but haven't tried it. One more good thing about a lighter weight system is that it can use a tripod made for a lighter camera. I would suggest that Mike try out his tripod with the camera to see if it is silky - it needs to be.

I would suggest that the accessories be the best they have to be - whatever that means, which is a tough call when you're on "the dish it out" to the piper end.

The Discovery Channel's original guidelines were to producers for pitching shows. Now it seems it is to separate existing content from format choices, although I sure there is a lot of flexibility in that. A lot is going to depend what you have in you hand to show.

We produce a series on PBS - Painting Wild Places with Gary Spetz - that is in every daytime market in the US. PBS is the pickiest network in the USA about NTSC standards. There isn't a single frame of IRE allowed to peak above 100 or dip below 7.5; they will hand you back your shows and tell you that one of them is out of l We started the show 6 years ago with a Sony PD150 and we do it now with a Canon A1 and HV20. The HV20 is used for location work so Gary doesn't have to put the A1 in his backpack while hiking into some of the place where he paints. He does hike into some gnarly places. The HD20 footage and A1 footage mixes well enough for PBS.

A $5000 budget isn't much. Fifteen, twenty years ago, you wouldn't even consider making a regional spot for that. So things have changed a lot. I would caution the producer about buying too much. The DOF adapter is an example. While I would readily agree it is a nice part of a storytelling kit, I'm not sure it would be the first thing that would come to mind in a straightforward music documentary - don't know; but I do know that it is a sizable chunk of the budget that might not have "story" written on it. That's up to the guy writing the checks to decide.

Which, I suppose, is kind of a point I might I driving at. A lot of the accessories you and I and many others have dished up are for "story" points. Some add flavor in transition and setting when establishing location and time or will help to get audio or light the subject, but what's really important, they will in some way help to tell the story. Something I hope doesn't get lost in the din.
 
Man, that $5000 budget is going down really fast.... lol

I'm starting to think that the HV30 might not be a bad option, and could actually allow us to get 2 of them instead of just the one, but still feel that the "small" size will come off as "Unprofessional". What is it with us men and size issues? lol

Thanks for all the suggestions on audio and tripods, I'm going to start looking online for pricing now :)

Mike
 
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