Are indie films profitable ?

I can tell you YES indie films can be profitable. My first film "Death Clique" was made for about $10k and i tripled that in returns. My second feature had a built in distribution deal so I knew how much i would make up front and budgeted it accordingly. My next indie is going to be $500k but will have a few names in it and has a sales company attached with estimates over 1 mil.

What you need to do is find out what is being bought. Visit your local Blockbuster and see what movies are new and hot.

Also AFM is coming up and its a great place to see what being bought. Also you can network with buyers and make connections.

If you are planning on making a passion film, something you wrote that is of personal interest or a story you really want to make, try to make it for the least amount you can. Keep risks low.

Another problem i have seen is filmmakers making movies that are not feature length. you need a minimum of 86 min, with titles. Time your script and make sure there is wiggle room to reach that number.

Hope this helps!
 
Good ol' Maverick, still pimping the Urban audience. What would we do without them and York. Doug actually used to work for York before they became shady. York took my first flick actually and I haven't seen a dime. (Then again my first film was made on a $700 budget). Good thing about Maverick is I've never heard anyone say the never got paid. You can still make money with them and they're more selective too.

The cover is so Maverick. I love how the guy is holding a Taco front and center basically saying "Hey we're targeting the Latino audience, see the Taco and the flag in back." But I'd be lying if I said the film didn't at least look like fun. When York targets us it's usually "Look, it's a thug with a gun or hey look at this film with the rapper/basketball player trying to survive the ghetto." LOL.

I have to ask though, are the people on the cover actually in the film? York totally screwed our cover up with bad, poorly placed stock art. I don't mind stock art and use it myself, but put some thought behind it.

-Nate
 
NinjaVsPenguin said:
Eventually I'll sell my services, but I want to be confident that I'll be able to deliver. Right now, I'm still learning and I'm focusing on the things that I can improve, honing my craft. Writing, directing, editing. And the best way to learn is to just do it.
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Hey, definitely I'm going to use the past client's comments on my upcoming Website to sell my services. They have agreed to give comments, so I'll have some really nice ones to use. That should help but I still have to drive traffic to that Website, or be able to distribute a small package to interested clients. I was thinking since I have an Epson 3800 printer, about an $1,100 machine, and a Bravo II disk publisher that I just bought along with the Epson, I really should put together a little sales package, like get an envelope with my company logo on it, then inside you'd find some information about my company, myself, and a DVD sample of my corporate work, and I could keep a number of these packages ready for when I make the right contacts. I could try to get to places where I could drop one off, even, or send them out to interested parties, etc.

I understand what you mean about wanting to hone your skills first. I also feel like I want to do more of that before I start to pursue the bigger goals. My dad, not being here in the area and just checking in now and then, sometimes doesn't understand that it's a process. He was expecting my last business with my business partner to take off and we'd start making money right away, but I had to explain that first I needed to understand what the heck I was doing before we started selling ourselves. It's quite a process just learning the craft, THEN you can go about figuring out ways to make money off your skills. At this point I'm half-and-half, I can do pro work in the corporate arena and music videos and am very confident about those areas, but I'd still like to build my reel more with some spec. ads and show off more of my creativity there, rather than just have my corporate / industrial reel. I just don't want a client to say, "Do you do commercials too?" and have me say, "Sure, I can do commercials," then they ask to see some samples and I have to admit I've never even done a commercial before. Haha, that's pretty bad honestly. I don't want to be in that position. So I'm trying to get on that fast and I have some cash earmarked to spend on a few spec. ads. I think it's well worth the investment.
 
haha yah doug is a character. but hes honest at least. he said hey will you make me a latino film? so off i went. definitely won't do another comedy though heh. they redid my poster, i totally went another way. www.thefiestagrand.com

yes thats all cast members in the art. funny though, there isnt a single taco in the movie!

york> eeeek!
 
No disrespect intended, and I congratulate you on making an indie ultra low budget feature film and coming out in the black financially on it, but if that is repeatedly the case (let us hope it is not), that is just not enough to make it worth it imho. $30,000 in returns - $10,000 cost - $20,000 profit, minus maybe $5,000+ to the taxman, meaning $15,000 to split among those that ponied up the money to make the film as real after taxes profit. For how many hours of your time? That is just not much, unless it is being done for love, for the sake of art; then that is cool. Or if being done as a learning experience. But I would really hope (for you and others) that the next indie you make, and the one after that, make a great deal more profit.

mediamogul said:
I can tell you YES indie films can be profitable. My first film "Death Clique" was made for about $10k and i tripled that in returns. ....
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Randall_Oelerich said:
No disrespect intended, and I congratulate you on making an indie ultra low budget feature film and coming out in the black financially on it, but if that is repeatedly the case (let us hope it is not), that is just not enough to make it worth it imho. $30,000 in returns - $10,000 cost - $20,000 profit, minus maybe $5,000+ to the taxman, meaning $15,000 to split among those that ponied up the money to make the film as real after taxes profit. For how many hours of your time? That is just not much, unless it is being done for love, for the sake of art; then that is cool. Or if being done as a learning experience. But I would really hope (for you and others) that the next indie you make, and the one after that, make a great deal more profit.
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You gotta get your feet wet somehow. Even if you make no profit on your first feature, you get more looks for simply having distribution. This will help you get the bigger payoffs in the future.
 
I agree. Better to make money than lose money, no matter how much. As long as it is a learning experience and the films and profits get bigger with each one made. I think making a first feature with a profit is a HUGE accomplishment, to be praised; I can not even imagine making a feature film, seems like a monumental endeavor.

Cryogenic Filmworks said:
You gotta get your feet wet somehow. Even if you make no profit on your first feature, you get more looks for simply having distribution. This will help you get the bigger payoffs in the future.
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Randall_Oelerich said:
No disrespect intended, and I congratulate you on making an indie ultra low budget feature film and coming out in the black financially on it, but if that is repeatedly the case (let us hope it is not), that is just not enough to make it worth it imho. $30,000 in returns - $10,000 cost - $20,000 profit, minus maybe $5,000+ to the taxman, meaning $15,000 to split among those that ponied up the money to make the film as real after taxes profit. For how many hours of your time? That is just not much, unless it is being done for love, for the sake of art; then that is cool. Or if being done as a learning experience. But I would really hope (for you and others) that the next indie you make, and the one after that, make a great deal more profit.
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I completely agree with your statement. In my case I came from producing features and television mow. When I got the bug (after seeing what a DVX could do!) I decided to make the leap into directing. Since my first project was going to be funded by myself I wanted a "no risk environment". My attorney said to make a horror and keep the budget low. Thats what I did. This game me a chance to test my directing skills.

My upcoming feature is in the 500k range, investor money. I hope to net 200k when all is said and done.
 
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It's doable, but tough, to make any serious money with an indie, especially as a first time no-name. It reeeeeally has to stand out above the crowd at a film festival. Many independent films still have substantial financial backing from experienced/proven directors and excellent actors, so just having a great script alone is a good start but it's still a long road to haul. The producing and marketing and distribution, unfortunately, seems to be as, or more important than the film itself. But if you have that rare 'magical' film that all comes together wonderfully, that should provide the sails needed to get attention.

It's an industry built on dreamers, and I say dream on, your dreams certainly can come true. But from my limited exposure to the industry, there's so much more to it than being a great director or cinematographer or script writer... lots of legalize when investors are involved, lots of knowing the business apart from the actual film, and lots of intense marketing. And if it's your project, no one is gonna care about it as much as you, so you're the one who's gonna hafta make it fly and wear all these hats. Unless, of course, you have the type of budget that will allow you to hire others to do this stuff for you. Ka-ching.

I'm going with producing wilderness adventure videos and selling on my own directly, as well as specialty websites/stores, and maybe get some contract stuff for HD broadcasters. I think that's easier to make a return on $$, but there's not the chance I'll make a blow-out $100,000,000 flick using this model. Ha! I'm already halfway there with my still photography stuff, so I'm just looking for a way to get wild and crazy full-time and get out of the dang insurance business.
 
Cryogenic Filmworks said:
You gotta get your feet wet somehow. Even if you make no profit on your first feature, you get more looks for simply having distribution. This will help you get the bigger payoffs in the future.
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That's what I figure. The main reason I would want to make a profit on my first feature is not because of the money, ironically, it's because it would establish a track record for me. If I spent $150,000 and got the film bought for $250,000, it's more the fact that I sold a film for more than I paid for it, and that's good business. The $100,000 profit would be nice, but not spectacular, and wouldn't change my lifestyle at all, but having a profitable first film would probably give me a great chance to do a second film, and that would change my lifestyle!
 
kwoff said:
Where do these numbers come from?
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Basically what I've seen and come across dealing with other indie's like myself. Most of the people I've run into that put less than $15K in their movie, have a deal right now. many in the midrange $80K to $140K are the ones without a deal and a lot of investors that are upset.
 
Randall_Oelerich said:
- FROM Another Thread moved to this thread -- I would like to keep a feature under $100,000 but I know hiring a director, DP, DS, LP (anybody need to buy a vowel, haha) the budget goes up; unless they really believe in the story and each other so as to agree to back end points. Then I guess shell out good money for an entertainment attorney to reall craft a good contract so everybody wins when the film makes money. If the director and DP had a feature film credit with a demo reel, I think it would be easier to get some investors on board to raise the budget-- local dentists bored and looking to put some money into the arts, film boards, grants, etc. In some ways that seems easier than getting HW execs to buy and produce one's screenplay even if its great.
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You don't need all these people for your first movie. all you need is

Director/Producer/Editor
Lighting
Director of Photography (DP)
Audio

That's it. And you need to learn to be your own Director/Producer/Editor and to do at leat one of th efollowing jobs. In my last movie at one time or another I did Director/ Writer/ Producer/ Editor/ Sound Mix/ Audio/ DP/ Lighting/ Foley / Color Correction /Color Grading/ Grip /Technical Director /Special FX

Again taking it back to RR style, he did everything!
You must be a super-filmmaker to get past all of the other indies
OR you must have a great plan
OR you have to be extremely lucky
OR you have to have parents with deep pockets!
 
mediamogul said:
I can tell you YES indie films can be profitable. My first film "Death Clique" was made for about $10k and i tripled that in returns. My second feature had a built in distribution deal so I knew how much i would make up front and budgeted it accordingly. My next indie is going to be $500k but will have a few names in it and has a sales company attached with estimates over 1 mil.
...
Hope this helps!
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This is what I talk about when I say easy to sell genre. Maverick Entertainment picks up anything with Blacks or Latinos. ANYTHING! They don't pay alot and they are getting pickier, but it's a good place to start.
 
I know that a lot of people are fine with making their first feature for $15,000 or so, doing a lot themselves, and cutting corners. The thing is, I'm not fine with that. I won't make amateur work anymore. I did that. Nothing that has my name on it will be less than completely professional, or I won't do it. That's just how I am.

So for me, a minimum on a feature would be the following:

DP
Director
Unit Production Manager
1st Assistant Camera
1st Assistant Director
Hair / Makeup artist (at least you need one person for this)
Script Supervisor
Key grip
Gaffer
Grip (or two)
Swing
Production Designer
Set dresser (or two)
Production Sound
Two PAs (always need underpaid PAs to do various work, very helpful)

That's as small as I could go on a feature and still be willing to make it. That's still a small crew, I shot my last music video with that crew just about, and it was adequate and professional, but that's what I'd want on a feature. I will not be the director of a feature where I have to grip or do any technical work. If I'm directing a feature film, I'll be focusing only on the craft of directing, working with my actors for what they want, advising the production designer of changes to the scene, or what I'd like to see for tomorrow's scenes, etc.

I'm not saying that's the right way to do things, I'm just saying those are my standards. I'd rather save up more money to match those standards than shoot something I won't be proud of having out there. And frankly I'd rather spent $150,000 and make a film that was really good, really competitive with any pro work out there, and yet lose money, than to spend $15,000 and make a meager profit on a bad piece of work. No thanks. I value my name much more highly than that.
 
JonathanLB said:
I know that a lot of people are fine with making their first feature for $15,000 or so, doing a lot themselves, and cutting corners. The thing is, I'm not fine with that. I won't make amateur work anymore. I did that. Nothing that has my name on it will be less than completely professional, or I won't do it. That's just how I am.

So for me, a minimum on a feature would be the following:

DP
Director
Unit Production Manager
1st Assistant Camera
1st Assistant Director
Hair / Makeup artist (at least you need one person for this)
Script Supervisor
Key grip
Gaffer
Grip (or two)
Swing
Production Designer
Set dresser (or two)
Production Sound
Two PAs (always need underpaid PAs to do various work, very helpful)

That's as small as I could go on a feature and still be willing to make it. That's still a small crew, I shot my last music video with that crew just about, and it was adequate and professional, but that's what I'd want on a feature. I will not be the director of a feature where I have to grip or do any technical work. If I'm directing a feature film, I'll be focusing only on the craft of directing, working with my actors for what they want, advising the production designer of changes to the scene, or what I'd like to see for tomorrow's scenes, etc.

I'm not saying that's the right way to do things, I'm just saying those are my standards. I'd rather save up more money to match those standards than shoot something I won't be proud of having out there. And frankly I'd rather spent $150,000 and make a film that was really good, really competitive with any pro work out there, and yet lose money, than to spend $15,000 and make a meager profit on a bad piece of work. No thanks. I value my name much more highly than that.
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I used to be more into my name than making work, but then I recognized without any work, I don't have a name to begin with! :)

You have music videos under your belt, many of us don't have anything. A bad start is better than no-start.

As for having loads of people - Sheesh I've been around so many people that don't know what they are doing until it's pathetic. Like I said in another post, I'm probably one of the top 10% of people in the ATL for lighting. I'm sure I'm in the top 30% for DP work and top 40% for audio. My new feature is better than a feature I saw recently with a $125K, budget! (My budget was $25K) I shot a commercial recently to build up my reel for like super cheap - $600. (I only had 1 commericial before this) We hit it with a crew of 3. The guy came back and said it was better than a project he'd spent $60K on. So for 1% of the money he got a better product. Having the right people is extremely importaint, not just having a lot of people.

I don't trust too many people with my ideas, it's very hard to become a part of my crew because I'm looking for multi-talented people who are hard working, easy to get along with, and want to create a great product. I'm looking for people to buy into a vision of better filmmaking, not specialization of work and an environment of "just-a-job".

I think people get burned because they want to do work, but mix themselves with the wrong people or people that aren't going anywhere. I'm trying to create a "family" atmosphere with my prod company.
 
Hey,

Well I agree you want people with a great attitude who are stoked about your project too. But those people are pretty easy to find in L.A. I've had some great people on my shoots where I felt like I didn't deserve people of this quality with this enthusiasm about the work for what I was paying them, which was often in the $150-200/day range, or $350 for a project that required quite a lot of hours, to the point where their hourly pay was probably like $8, haha. People are very passionate about that stuff here, at least they have been with what I've done.

I don't want people who do a bunch of jobs, though. I can't use those people. I want someone who does one job and does it very well. I don't want a guy who says, "Oh yeah dude I'm an audio specialist but I also edit and I am a good grip and I can shoot for you too!" Immediately I will NOT even consider hiring that person. They have just told me all of this conflicting information and I'm supposed to trust they're good at like 5 things? I don't think so. I like specialists who tell me they're great at their job, whatever that is, whether it's production sound, a DP, etc. It's one thing for a post audio guy to say, "Yeah I'm a good editor, too," that's pretty normal, doesn't always happen but some post audio guys started in editing footage and just realized they like the audio part better than the visual. But when you want to sell yourself as 7-8 different jobs, you are selling yourself as an amateur to me. Jack of all trades, master of none. It's like when someone says, and I think I just read that here, "Well the trick is you just have to be a better editor then your work will be so much better." Uhh... no. The trick is you hire a professional editor to edit. I mean, duh. If you want someone to build you a house, you hire a professional architect and professional construction people. You don't have the architect pound the nails and do the interior design, too. It's a collaborative process that involves many talented, creative people working together to achieve a greater goal. That's one of the things that to me is beautiful about filmmaking. It's why sometimes you can get a bunch of people together who are not amazing individually, and haven't shown on previous projects that their abilities are really stellar, can come together on one particular project and the project is better than the sum of its parts. Everyone steps up and together can cover each other and create a project that's pretty amazing. Of course, it can easily happen the other way, and does constantly -- a ton of talented professionals come together on a project, and for some reason the project is a total disaster, is awful in almost every respect, and you wonder how did so many talented, amazing people make such a turd ;)
 
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