How do you spot a good director?

[Ted Spencer]

People.

Directors don't make films. Producers make films.

Granted, in terms of the conventional job description. But at a low budget level, often not. And yes, the Best Picture Oscar does go to the producer.

But the larger point is that it actually is "a director's medium" as it is often called, much to the consternation of folks who staunchly espouse views like yours in the post I snipped the above from (and I don't mean to sound critical of you for taking that position).

Why is it really a director's medium? Simple: because the director, even if he or she was hired by a producer, calls the creative shots in the moment. It's the director who says "cut - print" or (to an actor) "do it like your pants are on fire", or (to the composer) "take out the trombone part", and so on... Not the producer. The producer may and likely will weigh in on all those things, but it is the director's final say - or he's not really the director.

I am currently producing a feature film, as well as co-writing the script. But when we're on set, or even in auditions and rehearsals, it is not my place to override the director's prerogative to call the creative shots. If the roles were reversed, as they well might be on a different project, it would be.

That's why directors get and deserve the acclaim as artists and creators that they do. The producer may hire the artist, decide the subject, and provide the paint and canvas, but more than anyone else, the director holds the brush.

 

[c.g._eads]

Well we all have a right to our opinions, but I beg to differ with the notion that few directors have made more than one great film. And while I agree that "Star Wars - A New Hope" (aka Episode IV, aka "the first one") was a great film, for me it's far from the greatest film ever made. Way far. Different strokes...

But as to directors who consistently make great films, I have to say that the notion that there are none is...well...in my humble opinion...dumber than a day-old bag of rocks. Sorry to put it that way...really.

Here are just a few that, I think most people would agree, support my side of the argument:

Coen Bros: Fargo, Raising Arizona, No Country For Old Men, others

Spielberg: Raiders Of The Lost Ark, Close Encounters, Schindler's List, Catch Me If You Can, ET, Jurassic Park

Hitchcock: Psycho, The Birds, Raer Window, Vertigo, many, many others

Frank Capra: It's A Wonderful Life, Lost Horizon, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, many others

Martin Scorsese: Gangs Of New York, The Departed, Raging Bull, The King of Comedy, many others

Francis Coppola: Godfather I, Godfather II, Apocalypse Now (all masterpieces)

Enough...

I guess I hold movies to a higher standard. However, I did say there were a handful of directors throughout time that have had more than one great movie. So I'll assume in your rush to make such memorable observations as I'm "dumb as a box of rocks", you skipped over that part. I mentioned Spielberg. I'd probably put Hitchcok in there. As for the other directors you listed (and I know this is an unpopular opinion), I'd probably disagree. Again, just my opinion. However, if you take out those few exceptions to the rule, the other 99% of directors who have ever made a feature film, have not exceeded that "one great film" bar. And if you only need one great film to be considered a "great" director, I think we need to reevaluate the definition of great.

 

[Ted Spencer]

I guess I hold movies to a higher standard.

You forgot to add the "in my humble opinion" part...

: )

And "Star Wars", your "greatest movie ever" is widely and rightly knocked, hard, for having very poorly written, wooden dialog, even by many of the actors that were in it. Lucas is notorious for bad dialog writing. Great stories, stupendous vision, but flat, wooden dialog. Making "A New Hope" arguably not a very fitting candidate for best film ever...

In my humble opinion : )

 

[sean90291]

There are so many variables that go into a truly great movie, maybe there's a certain percentage of talent that is the deciding factor and then a HUGE amount of luck. As one industry vet said to me, "People ask why we make so many bad movies in Hollywood, and my answer is it's amazing we manage to make any good ones at all."

Then again, c.g., you might truly be an impossible critic if you never liked any of the other work of the directors you mention. I think that there are directors who continue to make work that is quite brilliant, but making an "iconic" film has so much more to do with timing and zeitgeist and so much less to do with talent. If you're very lucky, in a lifetime you can probably make only one film that "changes the industry" and changes the way the world looks at cinema. It requies too many things entirely out of your control.

 

[c.g._eads]

I think the actors he cast in that film made the dialogue great. I know it's not a popular film to hold in the number one slot, but I believe the energy and inventiveness of that movie on every level are second to no other film in history. Sure the dialogue doesn't "sing", like say, Tarantino's dialogue. But Tarantino didn't have to create an entire universe for his film. in my humble opinion.

In the end, I know I can defend my pick til the cows come home just as I know you can probably defend yours, whatever that film may be. However, I don't think it's on topic so I'll cease discussing it.

sean, I hear what you're saying. In reviewing what I wrote, I think I'm making a mistake by tabbing those films "great" when, in actuality, they should be considered classics. And classics are only made once a lifetime. Still, with almost all of my favorite movies, the director has usually let me down the rest of his career.

 

[JonathanLB]

You forgot to add the "in my humble opinion" part...

: )

And "Star Wars", your "greatest movie ever" is widely and rightly knocked, hard, for having very poorly written, wooden dialog, even by many of the actors that were in it. Lucas is notorious for bad dialog writing. Great stories, stupendous vision, but flat, wooden dialog. Making "A New Hope" arguably not a very fitting candidate for best film ever...

In my humble opinion : )

You are certainly entitled to what I think is indeed your very humble opinion, as many people in the world, and probably the greatest number, would put ANH as the #1 greatest film ever made. In fact, there have been quite a few polls to that extent. I completely disagree with you about the dialogue, and frankly think anyone who believes that is a freakin' idiot -- that was an Oscar-nominated screenplay, for one, in case you didn't notice that, which it seems you obviously did not. Second, the rest of the Star Wars movies have very similar dialogue, it's not like it somehow dramatically changed between movies. Any dialogue that is ever cited as awkward is only awkward because you somehow think that it should sound normal in our world, which makes no sense. Like the line, "But I was going to Tosche's station to pick up some power converters!" for instance. Well, in the Star Wars universe, specifically in Luke's world on Tatooine, that's a perfectly reasonable line. What wouldn't be reasonable is to say something that would sound normal to us, "But I was going to go to Oil Can Henry's and get my windshield wipers changed!" Uhh, what? It's Star Wars, not Earth. The number of amazing lines in the Star Wars films is second to nothing.

You can't find any other movies as quotable as the Star Wars films. If the dialogue really were that bad, nobody would be quoting it CONSTANTLY, and it wouldn't be a massive part of popular culture, way bigger than any other critically acclaimed film from Citizen Kane to Casablanca to whatever else. You cannot name an example of any film more quoted than the first Star Wars movie made, and in general Star Wars is the most quoted group of films. For a reason. Because it's great dialogue and the movies are infinitely quotable. There's also a reason there are millions of us Star Wars fans out there who were influenced hugely by the films; it's why I wanted to be a filmmaker.

As for the prequels, eads, I'm sorry you were disappointed by what I think are three of the greatest films ever made. It's really a shame when someone cannot appreciate great filmmaking because of pre-conceived expectations. Also, you are in the SEVERE minority on ROTS, which even by critics has been called a masterpiece and one of the best Star Wars movies. You won't get any blockbuster better than Revenge of the Sith. That is an amazing film. If you couldn't appreciate that, and you claim to love ANH, I don't know what to tell you. I just find that very sad for you.

As for whoever thinks film is a producer's medium, you're an idiot. Go back to film history class. Seriously. Television is a producer's medium. Film is not. If you don't even know that what do you do for a living? Work at a restaurant and just pretend to make "movies" on the side?

I produce and direct and certainly both have creative elements and both can be hugely responsible for the final quality of something, but it's the director whose hands should be on everything and whose vision should permeate the work. Not the producer. He just hires the right people for the job. A great DP is more responsible for the final product than a producer ever is.

 

[Ted Spencer]

Jonathan:

I like all the Star Wars movies. I own every one of them, and the first trilogy in multiple formats. I've probably watched "The Empire Strikes Back" at least 30 times. I recently watched all six in a row over the course of a few days. Clear enough?

But the dialog writing...ask almost any skilled screenwriter or A-list movie critic about it...is in large part dull, wooden and stiff. And again - listen to the actors. How many movies of such high acclaim have actors in it who, in spite of their deep fondness for the writer, will publicly knock his dialog writing skills that hard? You can get back to me on that at your leisure, because it's gonna take you a good long while to find one...

This is not to be confused with the *storytelling*, which is brilliant, and a clear reason why the film was so highly acclaimed, award winning, massively popular and so on. The characters are also well drawn, interesting, and very imaginative.

But dialog writing? Bzzzt! Thanks for playing, Mr. Lucas...

Have you sat down and read the script by any chance? It's available here:

http://www.wheelon.com/swscripts/scripts.htm

Then try this one: "Enemy Of The State", by David Marconi (1997, Starring Will Smith and Gene Hackman, directed by Tony Scott):

http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/enemyofthestate.html

Here's the first page (profanity altered):

--------------------
FADE IN:

EXT. SHENANDOAH NATIONAL PARK, SCENIC VIEW LOT - MORNING

Shenandoah mountains. A cold dawn. TWO BLACK TOWN CARS
sit side by side, facing a view of a farming valley below.

Two MEN in dark suits and long coats stand near the
cars, casually on the lookout. If we caught a glimpse
underneath the coat of the taller of the two, we'd see
that he was carrying a 9mm. Glock.

INT. BLACK TOWN CAR - CONTINUOUS

In the backseat of the car sit HAMERSLEY and REYNOLDS,
each well-kept and in his early 50's.

REYNOLDS
"I know thy works and thy labour
and how thou canst not bear them
that are evil. And thou hast tried
them who say they are apostles and
hast found them to be liars".
Revelations II.

HAMERSLEY
What the hell does it mean?

REYNOLDS
It means who's side are you on?

HAMERSLEY
You didn't ask me to meet you 30
miles from my office for a Bible
study class.

REYNOLDS
It's a bi-partisan issue. Everyone
needs to swallow hard. No one,
including you, wants to be fingered
as the one obstructing efforts to
crack down on terrorism, and--

HAMERSLEY
F*ck you.

REYNOLDS
What?

HAMERSLEY
I said f*ck you.

REYNOLDS
Is that anyway to talk to an old
school chum?

HAMERSLEY
You're gonna finger me as soft on
terrorism? Terrorism, you
unconscionable as*hole?

REYNOLDS
There are planes falling out of the
sky, buildings blowing up. American
buildings. Americans getting bombs
in the mail. What are we gonna do!?

HAMERSLEY
We're not gonna hand you and your
band of lunatics the keys to the
kingdom. I'm not gonna sit in
Congress and write a law that
allows the NSA to point a camera
and a microphone at anything they
damn well feel like. And the next
time you have something to say to
me, we do it above-board, in my
office, like everyone else. Now get
outa my car, I've got a committee
meeting on the hill.

--------------

That's just the *first page*

*That's* good dialog writing.

In my humble opinion : )

 

[Ted Spencer]

You are certainly entitled to what I think is indeed your very humble opinion

One more thing...just checking...you do know that the phrase "in my humble opinion" is most often used in a gracious way, as a disclaimer, by those whose opinions are generally quite well informed...right?

: )

 

[egyptianboxer104]

back to what people were saying about directing...

watch the behind the scenes for "stranger than fiction." There you'll learn about how many times the director told the graphic artists to change the graphics. With all those changes, he finally decided on the best one which truly tells the story very very well. That film would have sucked if it weren't for this director.

Just one example i can think of...

In my humble opinion

 

[dougspice]

I produce and direct and certainly both have creative elements and both can be hugely responsible for the final quality of something, but it's the director whose hands should be on everything and whose vision should permeate the work. Not the producer. He just hires the right people for the job. A great DP is more responsible for the final product than a producer ever is.

You obviously haven't ever worked with a good producer. A good producer saves the entire crew time, money, and headaches, as well as making creative choices often including locations, casting, and more. And, oh yeah, they're in charge of finding and doling out the money... and good luck getting that movie done otherwise. You can argue that the DP has a more critical role in the making of a film than a producer, but just because you don't see the strings doesn't mean there's not a skilled puppeteer somewhere there.

Back to topic, though, a great DIRECTOR is one who isn't at war with the producer, one who has developed a relationship geared towards mutual goals. These are the circumstances under which great ideas prosper. When people get territorial, there's no room for greatness.

 

[sean90291]

Back to topic, though, a great DIRECTOR is one who isn't at war with the producer, one who has developed a relationship geared towards mutual goals. These are the circumstances under which great ideas prosper. When people get territorial, there's no room for greatness.

Hm, I've barely ever witnessed a production where the director wasn't at war with the producer.

The director wants to do more (more shots, more effects, more actors) while the producer is constantly saying "we can't afford that." It's inherently an antagonistic relationship. I know there are many healthy examples of director-producer relationships, I'm just saying that this is often the exception rather than the rule. And the director who bends to the producer's will may end up with a really, really bad movie. Sadly, a director's job is often to do nothing but fight with the producer (and hey, if the producer thinks he knows how to make a better movie, maybe he should direct his next one).

 

[dougspice]

And do you ever notice how some of the better producer-director working relationships also result in better movies? How some teams continue to work together for decades?

There's nothing wrong with arguing. Yes, the job responsibilities of the two roles are in many ways at odds. But notice how without these opposing forces (one way or the other) things tend to go quickly and dramatically downhill? Look at Orson Welles (who is famously quoted on the subject) or M. Night, already mentioned in this thread. Respect is being able to tell someone they're wrong, and knowing they'll at least hear you out. Checks and balances are a good thing, in filmmaking as in everything else.

 

[sean90291]

all true doug.