Nearfield monitors and why my brain is spam.

bmowell

bmowell

Well-known member
I've searched the forums and read EVERYTHING!

I've google and oogled and yahooed and looked places no man should ever go twice!

And ME OH MY, the reviews I've read: Back and Forth and Left and RIght and NO and YES!!!

I can't get any consensus on anything! It's like the republicans and democrats are RUNNING the nearfield monitor industry!

God Help me!

I'm clutching Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp in one hand and Matt Gettemeier's Sound for Film and Television in the other! Even Jay Rose doesn't seem to have the answer!

I've got a room - it's 11'x8'x8'. I'm stuck with it.

I'll do what it takes. I'm willing to stick foam, bookcases and balloons (?) in places they should never go in a home environment.

Hades! I might even MAKE bookcases OUT OF foam!

This I CAN do.

What I can't seem to do is figure out, after all this research, what would just simply be a decent pair of nearfield studio monitors that would adequately represent the sound I am producing for the purpose of mixing and mastering when I'm not listening to my mix through either my computer speakers, headphones, tv sets, 5.1 surround system and foam cup with string attached!

I just want a simple answer! Just a little consensus! My brain smells like spam on a hot summer day and I'm fearful of tomorrow!

Small room. Mixing and mastering. $500 maximum out of pocket including the price of gas! I'd spend more, but I can't unless I sell my children...and the wife just won't go for it!

There's got to be a simple answer that doesn't include radio interference, crappy bass response, missing HF frequencies or selling my soul to Quentin Tarantino...the devil...or Wharfedale!

Anybody?
 
Hahahahahaha :D

I don't have an answer for you but I have felt like this over the last couple of months as I been trying to put some kit together. Great post! I'm glad to hear that its not only me that struggles to fathom the best answer.

Good luck on your quest.
 
KRK - V8's are good for near-field in a small room. Larger monitors in a room that size would give deeper mid-range, but the room itself isn't big enough to develop the low frequency waves, and they would muddy the low mid frequencies. With near-fields, keep in mind that what you're listening for is placement, upper mids and high frequencies. You'll have to listen to a lot of material (CDs) you're familiar with to know how to adjust the levels and eq for the bass frequencies. It takes some practice. Place the near-fields about 2 feet away from either ear, and angle so the table/stand/console reflections aren't hitting your ears first, closely after as it'll impact the first waves hitting your ears with out-of-phase crests and valleys. Don't mix loud, if you get a sound pressure meter, don't adjust the total volume louder that 84 db, C weighted - it'd probably be too loud for the room at THAT level - might have to adjust downward.
 
I feel your pain. The fact of the matter is, your budget maximum is severely limiting. Proper nearfield monitors tend to START at about $500 EACH ... If you can double your budget there will be a far wider range of options open to you, entry level monitors from Genelec, Dyn-audio, etc. One bargain brand to audition if you really and truly can't find more cash is the Yorkville Sound powered monitors - surpridsingly good and about $500 for the pair. In "real" spaces that can't be conditioned properly, I like the JBL Pro LSR 4326 or LSR 4328 are good - I have a pair of the 4328's, butt they do run a fair amount more than your budget allows.
 
It is a tough choice because there is no perfect answer for everyone. It helps to go to the store and decide what YOUR ears like, but do keep in mind that the rooms are often not set up ideally and often favor certain speakers over others. Audio heads will tell you to spend as much money as possible, and of course you will get better quality with more money, but you start having to spend a lot more to get a little when you get up there. You mentioned foam, so definitely read up on acoustic treatment. The best monitors in the world will sound like ass in a bad room, so you are on the right track.

I personally was at about the same budget and went with Bluesky's Mediadesk. It is great for a small space like mine. Its a 2.1 setup, so the satellites are much smaller, and you can place the sub wherever it fits (and sounds good). This helps give you full range, and you can turn down the sub when the wife is sleeping. It has plenty of power for a room that size. It had enough juice for a much bigger room I tested it out in (but you wouldn't want to monitor that way). Plus, it easily upgrades to 5.1... I eventually saved up for that, and its perfect for me! Despite the booming stereo in the living room, I much prefer to do serious listening in the studio.
 
The size of your room is a limiting factor. You could realistically use cheaper non-reference monitors, but you still need to know what good mixes should sound like using those cheaper non-reference monitors. You mentioned foam. Good start. Look into flutter-board as well. In smaller spaces, breaking up the sound waves (i.e., causing more reflections at different angles) can be more important than dampening the sound by reducing or attenuating the reflections (which is where foam comes in to play).

Strategically placing foam on the walls will pull out some of the ambience of the sound of the room itself, by reducing slap-back (think of it as room tone / reverb). Foam reduces or attenuates this. (Go to the center of the room, and clap loudly once. You'll hear a slap-back from the concussive wave - foam reduces or attenuates this).

I'm really trying to be very helpful when I mentioned the sound pressure level (measured with a sound pressure meter). Most people I've talked to who've tried to build their own studio/mixing room, aren't familiar with sound pressure levels, and what they do to your ears or how it affects the mix. I've been invited to listen to a lot of those home-setups, and 99% of the time, the first thing they do is run a mix at twice the volume that the room can handle, as if showing me how loud the system can get has anything at all to do with the quality of their systems. I'm not assuming you're in that category here, but I'd still consider it to be the most important aspect in your case.

As an example, have you ever gone to a concert, and it was so loud, you couldn't hear anything - everything sounded like it was underwater (and when you left the concert, everything still sounded like it was underwater)? That's the effect of room compression, where the sound pressure is higher than the room can handle. It affects those hair-like folicles in your ears, and prevents you from hearing high frequencies, and sound-image placement for the next 4-8 hours after exposure. Resting your ears is the only way to recover from that.

Try to mix much quieter and listen. Even with non-reference home stereo speakers in a small room, where you've broken up as many reflections coming back at you as you can, and added just enough foam to pull out the ambient room-tone from your listening room, you will hear more, and more accurately at a lower volume.
 
You can have a system that will work just fine for a low price, of course it won't be as nice as a $$$ system, but it'll get the job done.

Try this:

ROOM: If your room has too much surface/wall reflection it can cause problems. Clap your hands in it and listen for how the walls affect the sound. To resolve a lively room for cheap, go to a curtain business and ask if they get in old thick curtains they replace on new installs. Get the "free" old thick curtain material and put on all walls and on the ceiling; let it hang loose. This should solve many wall reflection problems. See if you can get the thick theatre type curtain. Be aware of safety, electrical fire hazards.

SPEAKER POSITION: Here are two way you can go about setting up the room. One is set up at one end of the room so your back is toward the far wall. This minimizes reflections. Or you can set up so you directly face a corner [there could be bass problems with this location at loud volumes] nevertheless, your speakers will go on each side of you at approximately arms length, and at ear height. You might need to set the speakers on posts of some sort. Speakers are to be set equal distance apart from each other and the listener, which makes a perfect triangle. You'll have a small narrow sweet spot where it sound proper, that's where your head goes 90% of the time. Move your head about and you'll be able to tell where the sweet spot is and isn't.

SPEAKERS: With limited funds get a pair of small powered Mackie speakers, or if not available, KRKs or M-Audios should do. You can turn out decent mixes, especially once you learn how your speakers & room translate into proper playback on other systems; in other words, you can compensate for EQ peaks and dips. The nice thing about nearfiled monitoring is that wall & surface reflections should not play much into the mix.

MIXING: Mix at conversational volume levels, playing back at louder levels fools the ear and fatigues it also. You might need a sub, a cheap sub should suffice for now, look around for something, this goes on the floor. This mixing method will require you to mix and then physically go to various places and play back your mix so you get an idea of how your system works in comparison to other pro mixes; this is what many recording studio artists do also, they play their records of different systems before they lock it. Once you learn your system and how to compensate you'll be fine. Select a few movies as a reference. Play back the DVDs of movies on your system so you get use to how it should sound; compare your work to these.

CRAFTSMANSHIP: Humble systems are capable of great mixes at the hands of skilled craftsmen. The EMI Abbey Road studio used one decent 1950s Altec speaker for mixing all the Beatles recordings in mono until they decided to be in fashion and used the other Altec speaker and mixed in stereo, Abbey Road, the last Beatle recording. The level engineers knew the speaker and the room and how it would sound on other systems, also the control/mix room was very crude by today standards. They could have had better, but they went with what worked and what they knew. Their track record speaks for itself.
 
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look your gonna get many many many different opinions here, because audio is actually alot more complicated than it sounds (he he, excuse the pun).

and in this case, pricing does make a difference, so:

talking in your price range:

I have the M-Audio Bx5a set, and like it (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/StudiophileBX5a-main.html), actually want to add the matching woofer.

the KRK's (as mentioned above) also has a very good reputation in their price range.


- Derrick
 
There is some really great advice here on room dynamics! And, yes, it has been my experience that good audio is a lot more challenging than one initially believes it is.

I'm sorely aware that my price range is a hindrance. Every nearfield monitor that I looked at in my price range seems to have some serious flaw according to at least some of the people who have either written reviews or had experience with them.

Every single one - From the KRKs, the Events, Behringers, Yorkvilles, M-audio, etc.

And that's really the problem. In the sub-$500 category there really doesn't seem to be any kind of "industry standard" that everyone accepts as being able to accurately represent a full spectrum of the sound you are producing.

I don't listen to music loud. I'm afraid to. I watched my grandmother go deaf over a period of years and it had quite an impact on me. I'll crank it up a little bit now and then...but I DO NOT attend concerts entirely for this reason! There was a study released last week in Australia that found that upwards of 70% of 18-34 year olds suffered from tinnitus (ringing in the ears) and the study pinned the blame on listening to music at levels that are unhealthy...particularly through ear bud type headphones. The sad part is that tinnitus is the first threshold you cross on the way to significant hearing loss. 70%. That's a huge amount of young people who are facing a heavy burden as they age...and so unnecessarily.

So, no, I don't listen to my mixes loud. I listen to them at a conversational level and then crank them up a bit when I switch them over to my 5.1 system at work.

I guess I just want to know what will, with an adequately treated room, color the full spectral range of sound THE LEAST out of the sub $500 camp.
 
You'll have to compare the performance charts of each product yourself. This takes some time & effort. You might also read magazine reviews in Electronic Musicain and a few other mags. Start with Mackie, they make decent reference speakers for the money.

Good Luck!
 
at your budget - seriously consider the Event TR6. I think the tr8s may be too much for your space. The tr6s in my opinion sound better and are less fatiguing in long sessions than the similarly-priced competition... Give 'em a listen... They're pretty "true" rather than flattering, which is what you want!
 
ullanta said:
at your budget - seriously consider the Event TR6. I think the tr8s may be too much for your space. The tr6s in my opinion sound better and are less fatiguing in long sessions than the similarly-priced competition... Give 'em a listen... They're pretty "true" rather than flattering, which is what you want!
Click to expand...

I agree, these would be a good choice. I've had everything from Urei 809's to EV MS802's (my personal fav) to Yamaha NS-10m's. I now use Event ASP 8's.

Just remember, you want the flatest response you can find in a monitor...they shouldn't 'sound' like anything as this would imply they are 'colored'. If you can get it sounding good on a nice flat speaker, chances are it will sound good on anything. (but always check you mix on as many different systems as you can)
 
Fix your room first.

Fix your room first.

As far as monitors go, the Yamaha HS50M and HS80M monitors are supposed to be the successors to the NS10 monitors. They’re cheap, self powered, and you can get a sub for them if you’re so inclined.

I don’t mean to sound like I’m raining on your thread, but you need to fix your room first.

The problem is you have two identical dimensions. The 8x8 part of your room is going to let standing waves build in a terrible, terrible way. You can put up all the foam, bookcases and balloons you want. Having four out of six parallel surfaces all the same distance apart will kill your mix no matter what monitors you use. You need to make your surfaces not parallel.

Many books have been written on the subject of room design. In school, we used “Building a Recording Studio” by Jeff Cooper for our acoustics class text book. It’s a good book and has both low budget and large budget solutions.

I know you don’t have the budget to re-build a room, but all the acoustic foam in the world will not fix the problems your room has. It will be expensive, but you really should start thinking of how you can fix your room. Your room dimensions can make a good room and you don’t need floating walls and floors.

Buy a book, read it, and start thinking and budgeting. If you can wield a saw and hammer without killing yourself, you can do it yourself. Have some friends around to lend a hand, drink your beer, and offer ignorant opinions (at least that’s what MY friends do…).


Good luck!
 
I ended up going (at least temporarily) with the Blue Sky EXO 2.1 system. I probably wouldn't have but I picked it up for about half of what it sells for and it was kind of hard to not at least give it a try. I seriously considered the Blue Sky Mediadesk, but decided to go with the EXO because it was a third of the price.

It's inexpensive and has won a number of 2008 awards from various mix magazines. I know it is not going to have the same quality as a pair of Genelecs, but from everything I've read over the last few days it sounded like it might be the best alternative for the under $500 market for someone who wants to hear deep into the low end at their editing station.
I generally don't listen to mixes at anymore than a conversational level anyway while editing....I do that on a 5.1 system at work.

There was a guy who just sold a pair of Mackie HR824s on ebay today for $400 with free shipping. Thought about picking those up, but was afraid they might actually be too much for the room that I'm in. Heck of a deal, though. I thought about just buying them to resell. They were less than a year old.

Yeah. The room IS a problem.

I have noticed that I get significantly less reflections when I have my set-up mounted in a corner. I'm going to have to do SOMETHING though as I can still hear the reflections when I clap...just not as bad.

I tried to talk my wife into letting me just remove the roof, buy some ivy to grow around the walls, and cover the floor in dirt...but she pointed out that that could possibly introduce a host of other problems - primarily bugs and my equipment getting wet when it rain. I hadn't thought of that. Good thing I'm married.
 
In that price range the Behringer 2031A Active Studio Reference monitors ($339.99/pair at www.zzounds.com) can't be beat. They've also got a number of settings on the back to help you tune them to a small or frustrating room.

I've been in pro audio for almost ten years and I've never heard a "cheap" pair of reference monitors to equal these. In fact, I've heard many thousand dollar monitors that can't equal these (at least in my opinion). I specialize in producing classical music (instrumental and vocal) and I've gotten results from these monitors that have totally blown people away. I produced a solo piano album and when I sent a copy of it to a friend who is a producer in Miami (does Gloria Estefon among others) he came back at me and said "what in the world did you do to get the piano to sound that good??!!" Granted, the answer wasn't totally in the monitors (I've got a couple secret tricks for good piano sound) but I credit much of it to those monitors. Same with a chorale album I did for a university.

No, I'm not a Behringer rep... :-)
 
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