J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
I see the point on the Duex Dave and Batutta
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What the ............. ?
Which ones ?!
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What the ............. ?
Which ones ?!
15 years ago tonight
- Thread starter David Jimerson
- Start date
The Big Red One, for example.
The problem with SPR's depiction, though excellent may it, is that it made the invasion look too easy. It took more than 12 hours to establish the foothold; SPR makes it look like it took 20 minutes.
In any case, even if it's the best D-Day depiction, the rest of the movie didn't live up to it. After that, it became a pretty conventional movie with stock characters and a questionable plot.
Not to say it's bad; just saying, I wasn't blown away.
The problem with SPR's depiction, though excellent may it, is that it made the invasion look too easy. It took more than 12 hours to establish the foothold; SPR makes it look like it took 20 minutes.
In any case, even if it's the best D-Day depiction, the rest of the movie didn't live up to it. After that, it became a pretty conventional movie with stock characters and a questionable plot.
Not to say it's bad; just saying, I wasn't blown away.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Regarding JP's ending: think about it from a storytelling perspective. They set us up to believe Sam Neill was this dinosaur expert, who spent his entire life devoted to dinosaurs. When he finally encounters them, what does his experience and his life's devotion do for him? Jack crap. He doesn't use his skills in any way.
Now, in the original screenplay, he actually has to kill the last raptor himself. And that could have been quite powerful: the scientest who loves them the most, who is most fascinated by them, has to extinguish them. That's a character arc.
But in the film version? It's just a chase scene, where they get bailed out by luck. That ain't a character arc. If the T-Rex hadn't arrived, they'd be dead.
In the screenplay, he breaks off the brontosaurus' skull and crushes the raptor, taking action to bring about the resolution of the conflict. Then, as the helicopter is taking off at the end, the T-Rex bursts through and grabs it by the skids, and he has to spray it with a fire extinguisher or something to get it to let go and save them. In both cases the hero is active and resolving the conflict, in Raiders Indy's pretty much totally out of the story for the entire third act. He's a passive observer. And in JP, they're all just chase victims.
Compare that to the ending of Jaws (which Spielberg FOUGHT Benchley for). Scheider, terrified of the water, his life on the line, kill or be killed, takes the shot. Scheider does it. If spielberg remade jaws, I'd half expect that while Scheider's lying there on the boat and the shark is charging, in the remake I bet he'd have some big killer whale swim in and kill the shark. A world of difference.
It'd be like in the end of Star Wars, if Luke didn't take the final shot, but instead Tarkin ordered them to fire and the system shorted out and blew up. Yes the death star would still have been blown up, yes the end of the story (the way it turns out, that is) would stay the same, but -- that's the wrong ending.
Spielberg makes awesome spectacles, but as a master storyteller I'm afraid he peaked with E.T.
Now, in the original screenplay, he actually has to kill the last raptor himself. And that could have been quite powerful: the scientest who loves them the most, who is most fascinated by them, has to extinguish them. That's a character arc.
But in the film version? It's just a chase scene, where they get bailed out by luck. That ain't a character arc. If the T-Rex hadn't arrived, they'd be dead.
In the screenplay, he breaks off the brontosaurus' skull and crushes the raptor, taking action to bring about the resolution of the conflict. Then, as the helicopter is taking off at the end, the T-Rex bursts through and grabs it by the skids, and he has to spray it with a fire extinguisher or something to get it to let go and save them. In both cases the hero is active and resolving the conflict, in Raiders Indy's pretty much totally out of the story for the entire third act. He's a passive observer. And in JP, they're all just chase victims.
Compare that to the ending of Jaws (which Spielberg FOUGHT Benchley for). Scheider, terrified of the water, his life on the line, kill or be killed, takes the shot. Scheider does it. If spielberg remade jaws, I'd half expect that while Scheider's lying there on the boat and the shark is charging, in the remake I bet he'd have some big killer whale swim in and kill the shark. A world of difference.
It'd be like in the end of Star Wars, if Luke didn't take the final shot, but instead Tarkin ordered them to fire and the system shorted out and blew up. Yes the death star would still have been blown up, yes the end of the story (the way it turns out, that is) would stay the same, but -- that's the wrong ending.
Spielberg makes awesome spectacles, but as a master storyteller I'm afraid he peaked with E.T.
Mark Harris
Pain in the ass
not entirely true. He tells the kid to stay still because he knows t-rex can only see movement.
But in general I agree.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
The Big Red One looks like I went out and shot it with a cast of 12 in Mission Beach, CA. :laugh: :lipsrseal
The opening sequence would have been an hour and ahalf long if they tried to fairly represent it, but .... was it ever confirmed at which wave they came in on ? Obviously, they weren't the first ones to storm the beach as when they got there, there was carnage everywhere.
I have seen the criticism regarding the general storyline in SPR but tend to disagree with that sentiment; SPR is one of the most defining war films ever put to screen. The story and characters do come across as caricature in presentation, but it's a microcosm of the big picture I think.
Thanks Barry
That's some information I needed to hear. The JAWS comparison is a great one.
10s
Veteran
The Sam Neill character arc was based upon his relationship to children. At first he wanted nothing to do with kids but ends up being the one that saves the two children. That's the arc. Self preservation isn't much of an arc, it's natural. Saving others you can't stand is an arc.
The T-Rex ending was to make it more climatic, and maybe ole Rex ain't so bad after all
The T-Rex is kind of the star of the movie anyway!
The T-Rex ending was to make it more climatic, and maybe ole Rex ain't so bad after all
The T-Rex is kind of the star of the movie anyway!
Batutta
Major Contributor
Yes, but as I mentioned, for a film with such a powerful concept, this arc is lame and just feels grafted onto the proceedings. Brody's arc in Jaws -- a lifelong fear of water he must overcome -- meshes perfectly with the story being told and is much more powerful. Fear of the water (death) is a much more powerful and primal fear, than a fear of looking after two brats.
Well, it didn't have the budget or the technology of SPR. But I think it artistically conveyed the enormity of the situation better -- even if it didn't deal with individuals with the same detail.
(And though it was from a completely different POV, Band of Brothers did a stellar job of it.)
It's true, but doesn't that lessen the impact of it if you think it was almost over by the time they got there?
Hey, I'm just telling you why it didn't blow me away. It was a little too stock, a little too one-dimensional, a little too unbelievable (they risk 8 guys to save 1? Wouldn't happen. Didn't happen.) -- AND, he took a bit of the ending right out of one his own previous films (his much better WWII film).
I like it. I own it. I love to rattle the cupboards in all that DTS glory. But it just didn't blow me out of my seat.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Clearly you need more powerful speakers.
That's what my next-door neighbor says.
10s
Veteran
Fear is a primal motivator but it isn't arc. Arc is tranformation of character. Character is action, or what you do. There is no change in self preservation, it remains static, the same. Brody's arc is really good because he must overcome "fear of water" to defeat his opponent. Brody doesn't have to kill the shark but his desire is so great that he defeats his fear and goes on to save the day. Neill on the other hand defeats his disdain for children and saves the day by saving the kids & escaping. I agree it does seem a little grafted on and from what I understand, it is. But for me it works as a vehicle for dramatic conflict. Could you imagine him just looking out for himself?... he could just hide... far less interesting and less dramatic. With kids to look after, it's a mess and makes us wonder will they make it.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
I just answered my own question:
"Pointe du Hoc: The Sixth D-Day Landing - Company B - 2nd Ranger Battalion"
Task Force C
Task Force C consisted of the 5th Ranger Battalion and Companies A and B of the 2nd Ranger Battalion. This force was supposed to wait offshore until 7:00 a.m. when a prearranged signal from Task Force A told them to either land at Pointe du Hoc and assist Task Force A, or land at Omaha Beach and proceed through the Vierville draw and on to Pointe du Hoc. The units of Task Force C were transported by HMS Prince Charles (Company A, Company B and 5th Rangers), HMS Leopold (5th Rangers) and HMS Prince Baudouin (5th Rangers).
D-Day
Although the Rangers of Task Force A were able to scale the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc within a half hour of landing ...
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Well, I just spent the last 45 minutes reading about D Day.
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Okay, waaaaaaaaay off topic.
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My D Day film would be more akin to THE LONGEST DAY.
"Pointe du Hoc: The Sixth D-Day Landing - Company B - 2nd Ranger Battalion"
Task Force C
Task Force C consisted of the 5th Ranger Battalion and Companies A and B of the 2nd Ranger Battalion. This force was supposed to wait offshore until 7:00 a.m. when a prearranged signal from Task Force A told them to either land at Pointe du Hoc and assist Task Force A, or land at Omaha Beach and proceed through the Vierville draw and on to Pointe du Hoc. The units of Task Force C were transported by HMS Prince Charles (Company A, Company B and 5th Rangers), HMS Leopold (5th Rangers) and HMS Prince Baudouin (5th Rangers).
D-Day
Although the Rangers of Task Force A were able to scale the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc within a half hour of landing ...
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Well, I just spent the last 45 minutes reading about D Day.
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Okay, waaaaaaaaay off topic.
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My D Day film would be more akin to THE LONGEST DAY.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
And I still can't fathom SPR didn't leave you just going "Whoa ..."
Are you sure you weren't watching a Chuck Norris film ?
Are you sure you weren't watching a Chuck Norris film ?
Batutta
Major Contributor
It works as a vehicle for dramatic conflict...if this was Kramer VS. Kramer, but it's JURASSIC PARK. With giant dinosaurs running around eating people, frankly I couldn't care less if Dr. Grant learns how to be a father. He would've saved those kids anyway even if he hated them. It wasn't necessary to resolve the primary conflict the way Brody's fear needed to be resolved in order to defeat the shark.
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J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
What really pissed me off was the little girl doing gymnastics and kicking the shite out of raptors in Part 2.
I remember sitting there and going "WTF ?"
It is why I like Part 3 better.
I remember sitting there and going "WTF ?"
It is why I like Part 3 better.
Sorry. :undecided
10s
Veteran
I agree but they wanted arc, so they chose this! Horror/Action genres have a tough time with character arc. Maybe that's because the genre is primal, run, kill, save your skin.
I absolutely hate it when films stretch their reality too far, like the little girl taking on a raptor. What were they thinking? Lucas did this on some of the star wars episodes and it diminishes the reality of the story. When this happens, what they're doing is "Marketing" for four quandrant appeal, and it stinks. Like a conquering Roman general crossing the Rubicon after victory, successful directors need someone beside them in their chariot, as it parades down the street of fans cheering, whispering in their ear "cut the cute crap, you too can turn out a piece of garbage."
SPR is great drama with wonderful questions and statements about America, especially now with our military commitments around the world.
It opens with a soldier's daily life, taking Omaha beach! Then the captain gets a mission, go find this average Ameican guy, and in doing so only two of the squad members survive. The captain dies but finishes his mission, just what good soldiers do. This speaks volumes about our society, values, etc... it's actually a deep story. The combat is dressing. The tribulations and sacrifice of the American citizen soldier fighting to save foreigners from invaders on foreign soil speaks volumes. Read Stud Terkel's books to gain insight on this topic. SPR is about American ideals. How about letting the German soldier they capture and let go. This is the same guy in the end shooting Capt. Miller and killing him. We're doing the same thing today with Gitmo POWs.
Side note: A few weeks ago I spent time talking to an elderly woman who was 19 years old in Norway under Nazi occupation. It was fascinating to hear about the brutalities and also the humanity of their German invaders. She told me of the nice Jewish people in town that ran a clothing store. They dissappeared one night. She also spoke of the Soldiers that occupied a farm house next to her families farm and the fear she and her sisters went through. She had much to say about her fellow Norwegian collaborators and what happened after the war. What an amazing time period. My dad flew B-24s, my friend's dad survived the Battan Death March and slave labor in Japan [ he was fun to watch WWII movies with, he'd always yell, "that's fake!" during batttle scenes]. Another friend from Germany, his dad was a Waffen SS tank commader. They moved here in the 1970s, once we went out on their boat and his father drove it, just like a German Tank commader, standing tall stiff, at attention. All he needed was his uniform.
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mjjason
Well-known member
Saving Private Ryan was based around the bonds forged between a a group of man. This was later expanded upon with Band of Brothers. So having them find Ryan earlier would have changed the basis of the film to more of an action film than a character and bond study.
Batutta
Major Contributor
Says who?...The engine of the film, and the concept that inspired it, is about a kid who's brothers got killed in combat, so he got a free ride home.