A Properly working DOF Adapter... Less than 1 stop light loss
- Thread starter Easom Aerospace
- Start date
Easom Aerospace
Active member
Quad Rails
Quad Rails
Kholi, I did see your post on the other thread also. The silver piece is actually the new main body for a quad rail adapter. It's aluminum and will be coated black and drilled for the adapter mounting plates. So the main body becomes the rail support holder for both upper and lower rail sets. We do have a similar piece developed for generic applications. Basically a precision rail spacer that holds an upper and lower rail set. The user can then bolt any configuration of camera/adapter between the rods. This becomes extremely handy because any tripod/balance mount can be uses on the upper or lower 60mm spaced rails of course allowing the camera/adapter to be mounted upright or upside down. We use a combination of our own rail system and a Cavision rod support. The generic Quad Rail system will consist of the 2 rail spacers and a tripod mount. I will post some images of that setup soon.
Quad Rails
Kholi, I did see your post on the other thread also. The silver piece is actually the new main body for a quad rail adapter. It's aluminum and will be coated black and drilled for the adapter mounting plates. So the main body becomes the rail support holder for both upper and lower rail sets. We do have a similar piece developed for generic applications. Basically a precision rail spacer that holds an upper and lower rail set. The user can then bolt any configuration of camera/adapter between the rods. This becomes extremely handy because any tripod/balance mount can be uses on the upper or lower 60mm spaced rails of course allowing the camera/adapter to be mounted upright or upside down. We use a combination of our own rail system and a Cavision rod support. The generic Quad Rail system will consist of the 2 rail spacers and a tripod mount. I will post some images of that setup soon.
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cardmaverick
Well-known member
Wow! That looks so cool Cory! I wanna test one with my Andromeda 
1. Have a 19mm standard version or one that will take 15 on one side 19 on the other.
2. Add a handle bracket that stretches between the two brackets or one heavy duty bolt in.
3. Sell me a set right now.
I'm a huge fan of the RED cage and have been wanting one for my hvx/hpx170 setup for some time.
Oh and drill some mounting ports for monitors etc.
2. Add a handle bracket that stretches between the two brackets or one heavy duty bolt in.
3. Sell me a set right now.
I'm a huge fan of the RED cage and have been wanting one for my hvx/hpx170 setup for some time.
Oh and drill some mounting ports for monitors etc.
Easom Aerospace
Active member
Rod Spacers
Rod Spacers
Ok. A 15mm and a 19mm set. What would be the preferred vertical spacing? The 15mm rods in the photos have a 170mm Vertical offset and of course 60mm horizontal offset. The 19mm rails are from setups like the Arri film cameras? They have a wider offset yes? I was going to design the monitor mount to mount on the top 15mm rails. Is there a standard monitor mounting method? Threaded holes? I was also working on a handle that would mount to the top rails, not the spacers for balance options. Maybe mounted to one spacer and the other end to the rails. Or maybe between the spacers is best. I can make anything if I know what is needed. If you can think of anything else I've left out let me know.
Chris! Yes. Love your green screen stuff with the Andromeda. Wow! I would like to send one to you for testing. I need a neutral perspective and some great HD footage through this thing. That would be great. Is your Andromeda on a DVX100A or DVX100b? I will also sign the petition as I really would like to purchase an Andromeda setup!
Rod Spacers
Ok. A 15mm and a 19mm set. What would be the preferred vertical spacing? The 15mm rods in the photos have a 170mm Vertical offset and of course 60mm horizontal offset. The 19mm rails are from setups like the Arri film cameras? They have a wider offset yes? I was going to design the monitor mount to mount on the top 15mm rails. Is there a standard monitor mounting method? Threaded holes? I was also working on a handle that would mount to the top rails, not the spacers for balance options. Maybe mounted to one spacer and the other end to the rails. Or maybe between the spacers is best. I can make anything if I know what is needed. If you can think of anything else I've left out let me know.
Chris! Yes. Love your green screen stuff with the Andromeda. Wow! I would like to send one to you for testing. I need a neutral perspective and some great HD footage through this thing. That would be great. Is your Andromeda on a DVX100A or DVX100b? I will also sign the petition as I really would like to purchase an Andromeda setup!
Take a look at this picture:
Mimic this, add your own flare, but this setup is really fantastic. That's one of my favorite things about the RED ONE, the Cage itself and the support modularity. Honeslty, someone should've thought of this quite some time ago.
The extra handle on top would take all the strain off of the HVX (or choice camera) handle and popping holes into the support like the RED brackets have would allow for a bunch of different mounting options. I personally REALLY want the RED battery plate and support because it's about time to get an external battery power source going.
The problem I see with existing options is that it makes the overall setup WAY too long. Being able to fold and flip it like that gives you back a good four or five inches.
Mimic this, add your own flare, but this setup is really fantastic. That's one of my favorite things about the RED ONE, the Cage itself and the support modularity. Honeslty, someone should've thought of this quite some time ago.
The extra handle on top would take all the strain off of the HVX (or choice camera) handle and popping holes into the support like the RED brackets have would allow for a bunch of different mounting options. I personally REALLY want the RED battery plate and support because it's about time to get an external battery power source going.
The problem I see with existing options is that it makes the overall setup WAY too long. Being able to fold and flip it like that gives you back a good four or five inches.
Easom Aerospace
Active member
New Cage
New Cage
Yes the RED rocks. Ok, I'm on it! 15mm / 19mm Quad Rail cage.
New Cage
Yes the RED rocks. Ok, I'm on it! 15mm / 19mm Quad Rail cage.
cardmaverick
Well-known member
I'm working with a modded DVX100A. With proper filtering, WB settings, and post unsharp maksing, it can produce some pretty awesome images. Did you ever see my Andromeda SGPRO footage?
Tim Naylor
Veteran
Keep it simple. That cage looks like complete overkill.
Why the added rails and weight? It multiplies the complication. Sure it's nice on red, but RED needs it as it's just a box with a lens mount and a CMOS chip. Everything from eyepiece, monitors, to power must attach somewhere. The cameras you're targeting have much of that built in.
What I think is really worth developing is a two rail system that is totally rigid. Torsional stiffness is key especially after you add a monitor and begin to torque a follow focus. Flex is the enemy. On 200mm it's a lousy shot.
I think the priorities for a rail system should be as follows:
- To brace the adaptor
- To mount a mattebox
- To brace heavy or long lenses
- To mount accessories (power source, camera light, hand grips, etc)
- A step down or riser system to accommodate flip optics
And with all this crap on it should still have no jiggle or extraneous movement when I torque the follow focus on a stiff lens. That's a tall order few if any low cost rail systems have met.
The only system that met my requirements to satisfaction are Zacuto's at a dear price. My system consists of the universal baseplate, Q Riser (as a step down) and three sets of a rods 10", 8" and 4" (all threaded). The rods allow me to configure for long lenses. When everything's tightened down, the system is stiff as hell. I can whip around hand held takes and still have everything in perfect alignment.
I am not a fan of raising the camera. For whatever reason, that's the route taken by most low cost adaptor makers on this site. I suspect they don't make living from putting a camera on their shoulder all day. Which BTW is still in vogue.
The higher CG is not ideal for hand held or tilts on a tripod nor is it as inherently stable as having a camera closer to the baseplate. It reminds me of the old Arri 2C's that were raised up about 4" to accommodate the motor. Lousy for handheld and didn't make for the most subtle tilting. I really feel these guys design them without a thought to camera operating. With the rails stepping down and the snorkel down position of a flip module, the CG is nice and low. Weight becomes less of an issue. I'd rather keep a 2/3" ENG camera on my shoulder than hand hold an HVX all day.
It reminds me of an Aaton which really went out of their way to lower the CG as much as humanly possible to have an edge for hand held. It blows away an Arri SR for hand held (though not in other areas). It's CG is only 3 inches lower but makes a huge difference. It was such a stable design that all you needed was Aaton's single wooden handgrip on the right to do amazing moves, while the SR to approach that kind of stability requires their legendary and hugely expensive bull horns.
So before you go nuts on a rail system, really consider the ergonomics and ease of set up. I always hear people ***** and moan about Zacuto's prices, but at the end of the day, they've no competition. Ask yourself the big question, after a 12 hour day, how many times must I adjust it, how easy is the adjustment and then multliply that times the number of days an average cameraman must deal with it. There goes at least a weekend and a day' worth of fishing. So in that context, I find Zacuto a steal - it's improved my quality of life. Can you top it?
I'll gladly beta test whatever you got as I'm a slut for trying on a new dress, I mean toys.
Tim
Why the added rails and weight? It multiplies the complication. Sure it's nice on red, but RED needs it as it's just a box with a lens mount and a CMOS chip. Everything from eyepiece, monitors, to power must attach somewhere. The cameras you're targeting have much of that built in.
What I think is really worth developing is a two rail system that is totally rigid. Torsional stiffness is key especially after you add a monitor and begin to torque a follow focus. Flex is the enemy. On 200mm it's a lousy shot.
I think the priorities for a rail system should be as follows:
- To brace the adaptor
- To mount a mattebox
- To brace heavy or long lenses
- To mount accessories (power source, camera light, hand grips, etc)
- A step down or riser system to accommodate flip optics
And with all this crap on it should still have no jiggle or extraneous movement when I torque the follow focus on a stiff lens. That's a tall order few if any low cost rail systems have met.
The only system that met my requirements to satisfaction are Zacuto's at a dear price. My system consists of the universal baseplate, Q Riser (as a step down) and three sets of a rods 10", 8" and 4" (all threaded). The rods allow me to configure for long lenses. When everything's tightened down, the system is stiff as hell. I can whip around hand held takes and still have everything in perfect alignment.
I am not a fan of raising the camera. For whatever reason, that's the route taken by most low cost adaptor makers on this site. I suspect they don't make living from putting a camera on their shoulder all day. Which BTW is still in vogue.
The higher CG is not ideal for hand held or tilts on a tripod nor is it as inherently stable as having a camera closer to the baseplate. It reminds me of the old Arri 2C's that were raised up about 4" to accommodate the motor. Lousy for handheld and didn't make for the most subtle tilting. I really feel these guys design them without a thought to camera operating. With the rails stepping down and the snorkel down position of a flip module, the CG is nice and low. Weight becomes less of an issue. I'd rather keep a 2/3" ENG camera on my shoulder than hand hold an HVX all day.
It reminds me of an Aaton which really went out of their way to lower the CG as much as humanly possible to have an edge for hand held. It blows away an Arri SR for hand held (though not in other areas). It's CG is only 3 inches lower but makes a huge difference. It was such a stable design that all you needed was Aaton's single wooden handgrip on the right to do amazing moves, while the SR to approach that kind of stability requires their legendary and hugely expensive bull horns.
So before you go nuts on a rail system, really consider the ergonomics and ease of set up. I always hear people ***** and moan about Zacuto's prices, but at the end of the day, they've no competition. Ask yourself the big question, after a 12 hour day, how many times must I adjust it, how easy is the adjustment and then multliply that times the number of days an average cameraman must deal with it. There goes at least a weekend and a day' worth of fishing. So in that context, I find Zacuto a steal - it's improved my quality of life. Can you top it?
I'll gladly beta test whatever you got as I'm a slut for trying on a new dress, I mean toys.
Tim
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Park Edwards
Veteran
It's not overkill if you really put into perspective you're not losing the 2stops or whatever stops of light for an added flip, no added hardware to the 35mm adapter. I'd love it if I didn't have to get a flip unit and got the rails instead for half the cost a that too. Depending how much his rail system will cost. It wouldn't make sense to have 4 rails vs 2 if it weren't putting the cam upside down.
Tim Naylor
Veteran
Stupid me. I didn't look at the photos close enough. I just noticed that the camera's upside down. Very cool.
The only mod I'd consider would be making the four rail cage just to accommodate camera. Do the 3rd and 4th rail really need to extend the distance of the adaptor and the lens. That way you could save some weight and footprint.
Another thing to consider, if this is going to go on an HVX or DVX, the focus on the viewfinder is such crap that you'll need an external monitor anyway, which you could flip with considerably less hardware than a cage (obviating the need for the cage).
Must admit, flip optics are a necessary pain in the butt. I'd prefer filpping my monitor instead if there were a way to ingest as flipped in FCP. Still waiting on Raylight for that one. Flipping in post really bites especially when you're doing 1080p multiclip (I use multiclip on most of my projects). Don't try it on an MBP (no matter what the configuration - just not enough througput).
My two cents.
The only mod I'd consider would be making the four rail cage just to accommodate camera. Do the 3rd and 4th rail really need to extend the distance of the adaptor and the lens. That way you could save some weight and footprint.
Another thing to consider, if this is going to go on an HVX or DVX, the focus on the viewfinder is such crap that you'll need an external monitor anyway, which you could flip with considerably less hardware than a cage (obviating the need for the cage).
Must admit, flip optics are a necessary pain in the butt. I'd prefer filpping my monitor instead if there were a way to ingest as flipped in FCP. Still waiting on Raylight for that one. Flipping in post really bites especially when you're doing 1080p multiclip (I use multiclip on most of my projects). Don't try it on an MBP (no matter what the configuration - just not enough througput).
My two cents.
It's either one or the other. You're gonna flip your camera or you're gonna have a flip unit and seriously? Either way is just as janky as the other.
As far as usability of something like this I implore you to spend a few days with a fully-built RED ONE and then go back to an adapter setup. The HVX handle is MUCH TOO IFFY for these 35mm adapter rigs that are fully built out. Having this cage and the option to attach a heavy-duty (hopefully professional looking) handle to it removes all fear of breaking the camera handle into halves. It's just not made to support all of that weight.
As for the accessory options: Again, I implore you to spend a few straight days with the RED ONE to realize why the cage for similar setups would be ideal. Take, for instance, the MicroPod or Zacuto's Battery plate system. Even as I look at my HVX200A Ultimate right now it's long. With the RR Mattebox, on it it gets even LONGER and the LAST thing I want is for some hunk of battery to be extended out of the back of the camera. You guys are constantly talking about "center gravity" but where's the talk about form factor and the fact that all of these extras are extending the camera outward in a way that's not very good for working in tight spaces or working in general?
The very FIRST thing I'd do with the four rail cage setup is grab the RED cradle and battery plate setup directly from their website. It's as modular as the cage itself and will allow the user to setup various different positions for the V-mount battery instead of just the one you're stuck with using Zacuto-- straight out of the back.
That's just one reason why it makes the cage a very plausible addition to the adapter and camera world. Like I said, send me an invoice right now and I'll shoot you the cash. I've been waiting for this for QUITE some time, been bugging another member on these boards to make one as well.
As far as usability of something like this I implore you to spend a few days with a fully-built RED ONE and then go back to an adapter setup. The HVX handle is MUCH TOO IFFY for these 35mm adapter rigs that are fully built out. Having this cage and the option to attach a heavy-duty (hopefully professional looking) handle to it removes all fear of breaking the camera handle into halves. It's just not made to support all of that weight.
As for the accessory options: Again, I implore you to spend a few straight days with the RED ONE to realize why the cage for similar setups would be ideal. Take, for instance, the MicroPod or Zacuto's Battery plate system. Even as I look at my HVX200A Ultimate right now it's long. With the RR Mattebox, on it it gets even LONGER and the LAST thing I want is for some hunk of battery to be extended out of the back of the camera. You guys are constantly talking about "center gravity" but where's the talk about form factor and the fact that all of these extras are extending the camera outward in a way that's not very good for working in tight spaces or working in general?
The very FIRST thing I'd do with the four rail cage setup is grab the RED cradle and battery plate setup directly from their website. It's as modular as the cage itself and will allow the user to setup various different positions for the V-mount battery instead of just the one you're stuck with using Zacuto-- straight out of the back.
That's just one reason why it makes the cage a very plausible addition to the adapter and camera world. Like I said, send me an invoice right now and I'll shoot you the cash. I've been waiting for this for QUITE some time, been bugging another member on these boards to make one as well.
mvb
DVXuser Sponsor
Easom Aerospace
Active member
Generic cage rail spacers
Generic cage rail spacers
Here are some renders of the new spacers. These are 15mm top and bottom with a handle. Tim mentioned the torsion when focusing a stiff lens. The cool thing with this setup is its similarity to a tringulated subframe chassis of a race car as opposed to a lower rail frame of a street rod. This is more of a quadrated chassis. When the lower rails are linked to the upper equal rails, you actually get more than twice the torsional stiffnes because you get the added benefit of diagonal stiffness through the 90 degree spacers even though there are no diagonal supports. Also the front spacer can be mounted very close to the follow focus. It is extremely stiff As far as the extra weight..... It's really light.... I'll go check the weight in solid works...
One of the images shows the camera and adapter up side down.
Generic cage rail spacers
Here are some renders of the new spacers. These are 15mm top and bottom with a handle. Tim mentioned the torsion when focusing a stiff lens. The cool thing with this setup is its similarity to a tringulated subframe chassis of a race car as opposed to a lower rail frame of a street rod. This is more of a quadrated chassis. When the lower rails are linked to the upper equal rails, you actually get more than twice the torsional stiffnes because you get the added benefit of diagonal stiffness through the 90 degree spacers even though there are no diagonal supports. Also the front spacer can be mounted very close to the follow focus. It is extremely stiff As far as the extra weight..... It's really light.... I'll go check the weight in solid works...
One of the images shows the camera and adapter up side down.
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Park Edwards
Veteran
what is your projected cost for the whole setup?
Glenn Thomas
Member
The Lightwave Open GL shots there make it look more some kind of mutated version of Babylon 5 
rogar-BigGrin(DBG)
Definitely looks nice though.
rogar-BigGrin(DBG)Definitely looks nice though.
Easom Aerospace
Active member
Janky
Janky
I think we will call it the Janky Cage. That's a good word. I really won't call it that though.
At this point since the parts are machined, The Spacer set would be around 180 and the handle around 70. So 250 for the whole set. At some point, after refining the cage and working out any dimension bugs, I will have many sets extruded and the price will drop quite a bit.
Janky
I think we will call it the Janky Cage. That's a good word. I really won't call it that though.
At this point since the parts are machined, The Spacer set would be around 180 and the handle around 70. So 250 for the whole set. At some point, after refining the cage and working out any dimension bugs, I will have many sets extruded and the price will drop quite a bit.
Park Edwards
Veteran
Much rather have this than a flip unit. Plus a flip unit is $500 plus. Sucks, cause I just bought some rails not too long ago. Maybe I can sell em.
-Rh
-Rh