Audio for Feature Length Film

[Noiz2]

Phil has something here. Your at the very start of making films. I still think funding a friend who really wants to do sound and will augment the budget is the best choice BUT. There is a lot to sound and not all of your production is going to be production. With the total production in mind I would get the Oktava and decent wind protection. You don't need to look good so you can if you are determined make a zeppelin that is very effective. With good protection and careful handling the Oktava can be used out doors as long as you can get close. You need a boom pole. If you were strapped a painters pole will function, not well but for practice it is OK. You will want to replace it but it's cheap and can be OK. Again I would ask where you are? there are a lot of users and one that was local could be a LOT of help. For instance I have a converted painter pole that I modified because I needed a long pole (for FX recording) and it wasn't worth it to buy a real one, that I would give you if you were local. So let people know.
Anyway, head phones are important. You can get by with a pretty cheap shotgun. A used AT815 should be very cheap. It's not a great mic but it has very low handling noise and if you make wind protection it will be VERY cheap for an acceptable shotgun.

The above will get you a setup that is mostly going to be upgraded IF you continue on but you can do good work with it. If your going cheap I would rather have a old good ENG mic (like the 815) than a cheap new mic. With what is left over I would get a flash recorder. Don't use it for production, use it for all of the other things your going to need to record like FX and wild ADR.

And 10s, people have not been recommending high end "pro" gear. You couldn't even get a high end pro mic for this budget. "Pro" gear is a wide category. Basically, unless you build it your self, you don't want any non pro gear. However mics like the 815 are pro, they just happen to be behind the curve, or aimed at a non feature film market.

 

[Tim Joy]

If I could do it all over again and build my sound package again, there are a few things I'd do differenly-
More wireless- I got two of the sennheiser G2 wireless' and always need a third, and although people will diss them all day on this forum, I love them and they work great, especially when your out of the city where there's no RF flying around everywhere. I suggest that you buy at least one wireless. They are so useful.

I got the sound devices 302 mixer ($1200) and it's great when I have a sound man, but 90% of the time I don't, and I go straight into the DVX, that way I can control the levels while operating the camera. Yes, only between takes, but it works FINE.

The best thing I picked up was a Neumann KMR81i shotgun on ebay for $800. This was a real find. This mic sounds SWEET. It's made to be on a boom (unlike an oktava) and it's made for dialog. If I had only $800, I would buy this mic and use it on the end of a broom-stick if I had to. (done that for a travelling shoot)

My feeling is that 70% of getting good sound is mic technique. It's true in the recording industry too. The other 30% is equipment. I'd much rather have an experienced boom op than a mixer any day.

If I were you, I'd skip over the Audio technica crap and get a great shotgun mic, a boom, and a decent wireless and plug those right into the camera. What's a great mic? Usually you get what you pay for- $$$

Also, you have to consider what kind of environments you'll be shooting in, and what kind of shots. If you're gonna be outside all the time, you need REAL wind protection, not those "Softies" , they really suck for anything above dead calm. Or you need more wireless. But if you're indoors all day, a simple foam windscreen is all you need. Get the things you need for this shoot, and worry about the other stuff later.

 

[Noiz2]

...

If I were you, I'd skip over the Audio technica crap and get a great shotgun mic, a boom, and a decent wireless and plug those right into the camera. What's a great mic? Usually you get what you pay for- $$$

With all due respect, did you read the original post? These are high-school students who have a $1k - $1.5K to spend on equipment. You say that personally you think it's 70% people and 30% equipment and then tell them they should spend upward of $4K???

And as a point of ref. The AT-815 is not crap, it was the standard mic for ENG and indi filmmakers until fairly recently. It is not a $2K mic but a lot of it's short falls are benefits to under equipt and not so experienced users. And personally I think it is fairly stupid for these guys to drop a huge amount of cash into this. They are not starting a business and they are not aiming to be audio pro's, they just want to get better sound on there trainer films. This is not a "pro" situation. The problem with "pro" tools is they tend to be fairly unforgiving for beginners. ENG equipment is probably the best suited to this situation. It's "pro" but also designed for use in less controlled situations and there is a lot that can be had relatively under priced used.

 

[Tim Joy]

With all due respect, did you read the original post? These are high-school students who have a $1k - $1.5K to spend on equipment. You say that personally you think it's 70% people and 30% equipment and then tell them they should spend upward of $4K???

And as a point of ref. The AT-815 is not crap, it was the standard mic for ENG and indi filmmakers until fairly recently.

Yes maybe that was a bit of snobbery, the audio technica is fine, but I was not saying they should spend $4K.

My point was that I could've gotten by with a mic, a boom, a wireless, and some headphones. No mixer as long as you have a camera that has XLR inputs with phantom power. All this can easily be purchased used for under $1500.

In fact there's a used KMR 81i on ebay right now http://cgi.ebay.com/NEUMANN-KMR-81-I_W0QQitemZ110251331300QQihZ001QQcategoryZ41466QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


It's one of those things that you could easily sell for the same price you bought it for when you buy used, and will always be the star of the show in your sound kit, while you upgrade other things.

Also, the AT-815 is a long shotgun, and because of it's increased off-axis rejection, will be LESS forgiving to improper mic placement than something like KMR 81i or senn 416.


Now that I'm done with my rant here's
some other tips for you guys-

-Stay away from locations with waterfalls, waves and racecars and you'll be fine.

-I would recommend doing a few tests in various places, with BG noise present in some so you know what you can get away with. There's no sense doing another take if you don't have to.

- Get room-tone at every location.

- Strive for a good balance between Camera perspective and Consistency. In otherwords, a wide shot should sound like a wide shot, but not SO different from the closeup that it changes dramatically and jarrs the audience.

- Remember, you can always ADD reverb, but you can't take it away, so err on the dry (less echoey side). You can learn what dialog should sound like by watching (listening to) a pro movie with your production headphones.

-Get good levels (Avg around -12, and peaks below 0 on your meters) and turn those limiters on. Don't be fooled by high headphone levels. The meter is your guide, not how loud it sounds in your headphones. If you are consistently recording it too low turn DOWN the headphones so you will bring the levels up to the proper range.

- Put a little thin piece of white tape around the foam windscreen at the tip of your mic. This will save you in dark shots where you can't see the mic on set, but later you find that it's in every shot, poking in like a little thorn in your side.

- It's all about the story and script anyway, as long as the actors can be heard clearly, you'll be FINE. Have fun.

Hope this helps, and I would highly recommend Barry's SOUND for film eventhough I haven't seen it.

 

[Noiz2]

Y

es maybe that was a bit of snobbery, the audio technica is fine, but I was not saying they should spend $4K.

My point was that I could've gotten by with a mic, a boom, a wireless, and some headphones. No mixer as long as you have a camera that has XLR inputs with phantom power. All this can easily be purchased used for under $1500.

Hmmm street for the 81 is around $1100, shock mount and zeppelin $500 - $1,000, Wireless about $600, boom say $300, Headphones $200, cables say $50. That put's you around 3K and you don't have an indoor mic and mount yet. Assuming you can get the 81 used for 3/4 the price your still way over budget.

It's one of those things that you could easily sell for the same price you bought it for when you buy used, and will always be the star of the show in your sound kit, while you upgrade other things.

Absolutely correct, well I don't know about the "star" part but definitely a good mic that would be a workhorse for a long time.

Also, the AT-815 is a long shotgun, and because of it's increased off-axis rejection, will be LESS forgiving to improper mic placement than something like KMR 81i or senn 416.

It's a good point but not my experience with it, and the 416 is not at all forgiving of bad boom technique. But it is long and that brings it's own issues. Since the 81 is described as having a hypercardioid pattern, I'm wondering if a better budget choice might not be the Oktava with a hyper capsule. It will be better indoors and is pretty decent out doors and simplifies the whole shmear.

I also disagree about the wireless. For these folks I think it's a waste of money and going to cause more problems than it solves.

Now that I'm done with my rant here's

Not a rant, good points.

-Stay away from locations with waterfalls, waves and racecars and you'll be fine.

add to that air conditioning, freeways, refrigerators, buses, weedwackers, lawnmowers, ...................

 

[micover]

Hello all, I have spent the majority of my morning reading through most of the archives here, and I know you get this question a lot. Yet, getting good audio is something that is very important to me, and it's also the thing I know the least about, so I just really want to make sure I get it right.

I would like to spend around $1,000 to $1,500 on audio equipment. We are high school students trying to get experience by making a film through the theater department. I have made 6 short films before this, but never using audio equipment.

The shoot will consist of interior locations in a very quiet setting, and exterior shots in very secluded out door locations. So what microphones would be best for me and for my budget? I need to be able to acquire everything I need with this money; microphones, boom poles, cables, and anything else I need that I don't know of.

Yet, not only am I asking for help with equipment, but also any tips you have, or any knowledge bases that would be helpful for me.

We are going to begin shooting in about 5 months, but we are planning on shooting many short films in this time to be as experienced as possible going into this. I also would like to spend this time reading, and trying to acquire as much knowledge as possible before we begin. So any books, articles, or anything of that sort that you think would be helpful, please tell me.

Sorry if I'm forgetting anything,

Thanks for your help.

Well start off with getting a good boom operator (very important). I recommend a quick online course if you plan to run audio yourself. You will need cables, boom pole, shock mount, and a windscreen fur (if your shooting outdoors). They go from $20-$100+ depending on your budget. You said you want to stay in around 1000-1500.. I think you will do well. Do you plan on recording audio directly to the camera? or do you want to record to a separate deck?

 

[Curtis.Laronde]

Low budget to start off with, Rode NTG-2 works great $269. gitzo Shotgun boompole with schock mount $98. Remember you can do alot of the sound editing one computers these days so I don't think you'll need a mixer, just plug her in the camera. A mic operator $cheeseburger for friend. XLR cords as well, your gonna need a long on because you and the boompole operaters are connected. (if theres a quick release any1 knows about let me know, haven't looked into it yet but the one on my xbox saved it 100 times so far from people tripping over the controller) And of course headphones.

Im not a sound expert so if im missing anything please respond with pointers. But so far were at $367+tax+s@h+XLR cords.

 

[ptalsky]

Well, for one thing, the ATR-55 is not a boom pole (at least as far as I know) but a really crappy microphone.

Please see my post above for recommendations that will fit your budget.

Phil

 

[Noiz2]

Hmmm street for the 81 is around $1100, shock mount and zeppelin $500 - $1,000, ....

FYI the 81 on ebay ended up going for $830 + shipping etc.