Audio for Feature Length Film

RallyMonkey

RallyMonkey

Active member
Hello all, I have spent the majority of my morning reading through most of the archives here, and I know you get this question a lot. Yet, getting good audio is something that is very important to me, and it's also the thing I know the least about, so I just really want to make sure I get it right.

I would like to spend around $1,000 to $1,500 on audio equipment. We are high school students trying to get experience by making a film through the theater department. I have made 6 short films before this, but never using audio equipment.

The shoot will consist of interior locations in a very quiet setting, and exterior shots in very secluded out door locations. So what microphones would be best for me and for my budget? I need to be able to acquire everything I need with this money; microphones, boom poles, cables, and anything else I need that I don't know of.

Yet, not only am I asking for help with equipment, but also any tips you have, or any knowledge bases that would be helpful for me.

We are going to begin shooting in about 5 months, but we are planning on shooting many short films in this time to be as experienced as possible going into this. I also would like to spend this time reading, and trying to acquire as much knowledge as possible before we begin. So any books, articles, or anything of that sort that you think would be helpful, please tell me.

Sorry if I'm forgetting anything,

Thanks for your help.
 
Two pretty good options. First hire a sound person. Down side is if your going to do a bunch of short first that's a lot of work for virtually no money (If your trying to make a living it's no money, if your a high-school student and it's out of your pocket it's a lot of money). Second is to get someone on your crew who WANTS to do sound. And spend the money helping them get enough gear and experience to make your show work.

As Oleg alluded to $1 - $1.5K for equipment isn't really enough.

ALSO put audio post into your budget.

Where are you located? Hit Craig's List and DVX Users in your area. A little locat help can go along way to making it happen.
 
My biggest question relates to the "Read this First" sticky.

Kit #8: Hey... Now You're Talking Package Kit
Who It's For: People looking to make a solid investment into beginning sound and are looking for solid location sound immediately. This kit will work for interiors, exteriors, and help users progress and build upon.
Includes: Audio Technica 4043a Shotgun Mic ($500), Oktava MK012 w/ Hyper Cardiod Cap ($180), Rycote BBG ($100), Rycote Softie ($100), KteK KSSM ($100), Gitzo Carbon Fiber Boom Pole ($300) Total Cost: $1280

Beyond this, well then you've learned about sound enough to start adding mixers, external recorders, wireless, and other tools. Remember these are starter kits and if they are beneath you, that's fine!
Click to expand...
This post is over two years old now, and I am wondering if the suggestions would still be considered current. Have any microphones come out in this time at the same price range that blow these mics out of the water? Have the prices gone down to the point that you would suggest I get something else along with this?

Also, when it comes to mixers, I understand they only become absolutely necessary when you have more than two microphones. Yet, they are still nice to have when it comes to levels. Yet, does having well rehearsed shots and being well prepared with only one to two microphones make a mixer even less necessary?

Sorry if it seems like I am just trying to take the easy way out. I have read all the topics, and searched through this board. It's just that the audio is very important to me, and I don't want to go spending all of my budget on it without being very well prepared first.

EDIT:

Oh, I forgot to mention, we do have someone on our crew who is the dedicated sound guy. I'm doing the buying, and then we're both working together towards learning the gear and experience.

Living in Idaho, there are very few options for hiring. Also, being a high school project, our major reason for this is experience. The person we have doing sound is very passionate about sound, and is very excited for the project.

I understand the money is not much, but it's as much as we can spend, and it's a very large portion of our overall budget. We all understand that we can not get the absolutely best sound, but we want to put the time into getting the best sound we can for our budget.
 
Audio technology moves slow compared to video, glacerily slow when it comes to mics. Wireless, non-linear recorders, and software are the only areas that make significant advances these days.

I have not seen Matt's audio video so I can't speak from experience but that would probably be a good place to start. Definately get Jay Rose's book http://www.dplay.com/book/index.html Although that is linked all over the stickies so you should already be aware of it.

As to your budget: how much did you spend on your camera? If audio is important to you, as you say, then plan to spend as much on audio at least as you did on video, including lights, grip equipment, etc.

The stickie packages Jeremy list are good for getting 'better then cam audio' but if you want a polished production with consistent audio, plan on spending more. A good starter ENG package budget would be in $3000 range (-wireless).

Start with reading Jay's book and work forward from there.


Cheers
 
I'd say that kit is still current. If you want a cheaper shotgun look at the ntg1 from Rode. It performs well (not as well as the audio technica though) for its price. I'd skip the BBG and softie and get the windtech foam for the oktava that Oleg has been talking about lately. The BBG will get the job done, but its expensive for indoor protection. For shotgun wind protection I'd skip the softie and get a ktek zeppelin.

You'll aslo need some good headphones for you boom op/mixer to monitor with. I like the sony 7506's. They're cheap and do a great job. Sennheiser 280's (I think thats the model) get good reviews too if you dont have a big head. Keep some money in the budget for some good xlr cables and a headphone return cable for your boom op. If you want to save yourself some money get with MattinSTL and buy some musilux cable off of him (he's got lots in lots of colors). This stuff is great and easy to work with. Probably should stick with black if you want to hide it easily. I do alot of corporate interview stuff so I went with red so people wouldnt trip over it. Anyways its an easy soldering job with some Neutrik connectors from Markertek. If you dont know how to solder, now is a good time to learn. Its quite a fantastic skill to possess.

Definitely get your boom op the DVD on sound recently produced by some of your fellow DVXusers. Its fantastic even if you kinda know what you are doing. It demonstrates technique extremely well and shows what to do in what situations, which mic to use and how to use it. It's full of practical advice you'll reference repeatedly. And its a freaking riot. Alot of work went into it to make it easy and enjoyable to watch.

You're right about the mixer. You dont need one but it should would be handy. I wouldnt get a cheap one. I keep putting it off myself as other things keep coming up that I actually need.

Jay Rose has two fantastic books also - one for production and one for post. Get both. No matter how fancy your equipment is it will sound bad if you dont know how to use it. I'd rather have knowledge and crappy gear than the other way around. Of course having both is fine too :)

And as Noiz mentioned, keep post production in mind. Are you going to be doing the audio post yourself? Do you have the proper monitors? This is one of my needs that has just come up. Totally having to redo my edit suite so everything behaves acoustically. Lots of work and the acoustic treatment wont exactly be cheap. A good set of monitors is about to set me back $1000 as well. And then I still have to buy pro-tools... thank God for academic discounts!

Anyways there's alot of aspects to good sound. And I didnt even mention foley, ADR or anything else... Dont know much about them so I'll let someone else chime in there if they want. Keep reading
 
Thank you very much for taking the time to add thoughtful replies.

I ordered Producing Great Sound earlier today. I'll be sure to order the DVDs as soon as I get my next paying gig.

I spent around $2,200 for the DVX100B, and that was out of my own pocket. Being a theater department, the lighting was already taken care of.

I really wish we could spend more on sound, but it just doesn't seem possible. This is money we're using from the school, and we really don't have much more than this.

If I was able to get this budget up towards $2,000, would things change much? I will work towards trying to find a way to raise our budget for this, but if I am not able to do this, the microphones from kit 8 will still be workable, correct?

Thank you so much for your help. I hope you can tell that I really am motivated to work on this, and it is something important to me.
 
RallyMonkey said:
Also, when it comes to mixers, I understand they only become absolutely necessary when you have more than two microphones. Yet, they are still nice to have when it comes to levels. Yet, does having well rehearsed shots and being well prepared with only one to two microphones make a mixer even less necessary?
Click to expand...
At the risk of sounding flippant, having a good mixer is an important part of being prepared for a shoot.

While it is certainly possible to plug a mic directly into the camera (deppending on the camera), there are a number of important reasons why a mixer is standard kit even when you're working with one mic.

The most important issue is that mixers have better (ie. cleaner, more transparent) microphone preamps than most cameras. More to the point, consumer and prosumer camcorders have absolutely wretched built-in preamps, especially compared to a good ENG/EFP mixer.

Another important issue is that the mixer will give you more control over the sound going to tape. When the mics are going straight into the camera, its virtually impossible to adjust the levels without shaking the camera slightly. As a result, you're obliged to set the levels to the expected peaks, likely underrecording the more subtle lines of dialogue. A good mixer will allow you to ride the levels appropriately during the shot, keeping the sound levels nice and consistant. A good mixer will also have a limiter, which can keep incidental peaks (coughs, shouts, even sibillance) under control.

When you're preparing your budget, you should carefully consider the cost benefits of renting rather than buying the gear. Renting would also give you (and your sound person) an opportunity to "try before you buy," finding the equipment that best suits your needs. We could all argue until we're blue in the face over which mics are the best, but the bottom line is that the correct mic for any given job is the one which best allows you to get the job done to your satisfaction.
 
Thanks for the advice about the mixer. I will definitely keep that in mind. What price range does an adequate mixer usually fit into?

I really wish that we could rent, since there are not many days of shooting, and that was our original budget plan, but it turns out there are no rental houses with-in a few hundred miles.
 
$1500 is more than enough for beginning film makers. Many folks here suggest top gear that is best suited for pro level work. A DVX or HVX isn't pro level folks!, therefor many times the tools suggested, though they are excellent, are often not needed. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

I suggest this: get a decent pair of headphones, Sony MR 7506 (?), with a headpone/mini plug extension cord so there's about 20 to 30 feet available. Plug it into the camera, there, you have a decent monitoring source.

Get a good phantom powered condensor mic ( a shotgun AT 4043a (?, look around) for outside recording & the Oktava mk012 for inside. The Oktava needs a good anti-vibration suspension system, it's sensitive! )

Plug directly into a DVX or HVX channel 2 and route the signal to both sides.

Turn on the ALC (aka limiter) set your volumes so they meter around 50%, with peaks hitting 75%. Have one volume (right) a little louder than the other (left).

Put the mic on a boom pole, and get the mic as near as possible (but out of camera shot) to the mouth of the speaker/source, i.e., aim the shotgun at the point of the audio source. Aim directly...that means directly. :) Also, when you can, i.e., actors aren't moving around much, put the boom pole on a C-stand. It'll help reduce handling noise.

Sound bounces off surfaces, so be aware of these audio reflections. Aim the mic so it gets the initial sound wave from your chosen source so it will mask reflections from walls. floors, ceilings. Masking is key to obtaining good audio recordings in an environment not designed for pristine recordings.

If your boom operator is awake & aware, they'll get very nice audio.

Also, the audio/boom op should listen for background noise, lawnmowers, airplanes, trucks, etc. anything you do not want in the sound track. Have them hold the shooting until the unwanted sound has stopped. Do this and your sound will be very acceptable. :)

This can be accomplished for around a $1000- 1300.

Once this is mastered and your ready for bigger tools you can dream aout the bigger tools often talked about on this board. Remember, if you use as suggested with precision, the bigger more expensive tools won't add that much more quality, so if you're not getting geat sound, then it's operator error.

Practice, practice practice, is the key to success. Your H.S. football team players will probably work harder than any of your film maker team members because they have a coach that knows that helmets and shoulder pads only go so far in creating success, the greater amount of success lies in mastering your craft through practicing the techniques and strategies required for optimum usage.

The next step is to take the audio into a program, I like Adobe Audition, where you can clean up tracks once the program is learned. Here you can add SFX and additional audio tracks, mix volumes, pan, EQ, etc. mono, 2 track stereo to 5.1 surround, final mix with mastering. Look for student discounts on the software.

Your audio guy will love the help section in Audition because it alone is well written and one can learn college course level audio theory & practice. It just takes passion & steadfastness.
 
While I 100% agree that good audio (and picture) is about the experience more then the equipment and practice is the universal key, I pretty much 100% disagree with everything else 10s said.

If a good boom op is all it took to get pristine audio then I would never need to ADR my own work, and that is with wireless backup. The estimate of $3000 is no more pro level audio then your argument that the HVX/DVX is not a pro level cam, which is also inaccurate.

The fact that many amatuer wanna-be's overestimate the capabilities of these cameras does not mean they do not do professional level work; just like $3000 will allow a person (with the right experience) to do professional level audio in many circumstances. This despite the fact professional audio packages live upwards of $20,000 and 6 figures at the 'Hollywood' level.

Jeremy's packages are a nice place to start but if you set your level there then the comparible camera would be whatever HDV cam you can get at Walmart....which plenty of people with the the right talent and good lighting can do wonders with.

As previously stated many times before: a good rule of thumb is to plan on spending as much on audio as you did on video. I would no more suggest a $500-1000 package for a HVX shoot then I would suggest a $3000 package for a Varicam shoot....much less a film one.

But as all of this is subjective, it becomes Rally's choice and he can investigate various options after he gets an audio primer from the books and video. As Smuir suggested, renting is you best insurance against buying more then you can use vs buying junk you replace immediately.

Cheers
 
RallyMonkey said:
I really wish that we could rent, since there are not many days of shooting, and that was our original budget plan, but it turns out there are no rental houses with-in a few hundred miles.
Click to expand...
Some of the rental houses will ship the gear to you. It'll cost a bit more (to cover shipping and insurrance), but it should still be a viable option.

Give the folks at Trew a call (http://www.trewaudio.com/). Last I checked, they'll ship in-country.
 
It does seem like that is a possibility.

The problem with this seems like, yes, this would allow us to get better equipment with-in our price range, but that would sacrifice the experience we would be able to gain over the next few months by having constant access to the microphones.

But I will consider it.
 
rally monkey - you ca\n invest 200 maximiun , recordinsg scratch tarck only and like garte italians or russian industry too mke adr
in your case it would be the best as till you see the money from ome one who invest in your films , the re is no really need to waist :-)

for 1500 you buy nothing , you buy picess of normal work , maybe gopo dor indy m but not for normal work flow , save the money or direct only close ups :-)
 
I'd start by saying there's bad sound, decent sound, good sound and great sound.
Great is probably just not feasible given your budget. Decent and even good sound is definitely possible, just harder. Sometimes a lot harder. You're faced with having to trade knowledge, time, experience and fortitude for lack of $$. It's all going to depend on the commitment and resourcefulness of both yourself and your crew.

Start by giving yourself and your sound guy some time to wallow in the archives here - there's just a huge trove of knowledge buried within this tangled mess. A good mic is worth a lot, but knowing what to do with it is priceless. The DVD and Rose's books are probably your best first dollar spent. You can also try your library - although you'll want to own them eventually.

I have a couple more suggestions and a lead on some possible gear - depends on just where exactly in Idaho are you? Kudos by the way for standing up and asking the question.
 
Okay, so I'm one of the guys on here that gets accused of being an equipment snob quite often.

But, I think we need to keep things in perspective in this case. You folks are high school students trying to get experience doing the things you will probably come to love sooner rather than later.

So, don't break the bank buying equipment. First off, look at used equipment whenever possible. Watch ebay and look at the typical used equipment sites. Here is what I would recommend that should fit your budget (all prices approximate):

1. Sennheiser 416 used ($450 for t-powered) (shotgun)
2. Octava hyper ($165)
3. Rode Boom ($100)
4. K-tek k-zepp ($300)
5. Sound Devices MM1 ($350)
6. AT-8415 shockmount with k-tek suspenders (for the Octava) ($80)
7. Sony 7506 headphones ($100)
8. Cables, various lengths ($100)

This is a bit over $1500, but it will give you a good base to start from. You will ultimately want to replace the boom, upgrade the MM1 to multi-channel, and probably upgrade the Octava. (When buying the Octava, don't forget to use the DV coupon code at Sound-room.com). But this gives you a good base to learn from. My only reservation in this recommended list is the Sennheiser, because it is very unforgiving. Your boom op will have to learn to be very good very quickly (but this is also a good way to force him/her to learn to be good). But, the Sennheiser 416 has been a real workhorse/standard for sound for quite some time. You will definitely save money on cables by making them yourselves (also a good learning experience).

Down the road you will want to add wireless, probably add a second boom, more microphones, add a separate recorder for recording double system, a slate, and a whole host of other stuff. Be aware that sound equipment is addictive - once you start, you will never have enough. :-) . And yes, you can (and possibly will) spend many many thousands of dollars and still not have a "pro" level kit. (A "pro" recorder like the Deva's or Cantars will cost you about as much as a car).

Hope this helps.

Phil
 
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