Audio Board Output -> HVX-200 via Wireless?

C

caiken

New member
All,

I need some advice on how to get mixed audio from the board to the HVX-200 via a wireless mic system..

I come to the HVX-200 as a software guy (embedded developer) who just likes to tinker with video production, so if I ask stupid questions please be the first to force me to notice!

My fatal mistake was to buy the HVX200 and brag around enough that now lots of folks know I have one! They are asking me to video in HD mostly for school events. Am game, but I want to do a good job.. and my current major trouble is audio quality.

The immediate trouble is that I a request from my son to film his high school play, and make a CD. This is within the scope of the tools I have (HVX200, FS100, FCP 6, Mac Pro), but I really have no good way to get the audio, other than from the theatre board.

I would assume that this could be possible by buying a dual channel wireless mic system, and stepping down the L/R outputs from the board to mic levels for the remote transmitters?

I need something that is going to work reliably and something I can get quickly (and as cheaply as possible) but I am willing to invest reasonable. Since audio investments are more stable than video ones, I need some advice as to what can work, and what is worth keeping long term.

My questions are:

1) Am I on the right track, or is there another method I am missing?
2) If I am in the right direction, is a UHF system a safe investment? If so, how do I know which band to buy?
3) Are there any units that are specifically designed for camera mounting to the HVX200?
4) How do I step down from board output levels to the mic inputs on the transmitters?
5) Since I will roam alone during filming, how do I monitor what the camera is receiving, and make any level adjustments? Is this possible?

Thanks in advance!

Chris Aiken
caiken@aikendev.com
 
how much do you want to invest less then grand - 2 grand -5 grand ?
you ca buy cheap flas recorder , atatch it to the board , run separate sound and place good mic over the camera to take the ambience
looks to me much cheaper solution and more relible for 1 person work , so you can cocitrate on what you shoot
the matching in editing will be by ear or with free run tc on camera and continues run on the recorder

less hen 500 you can make it hapend
other way is to buy zaxcom dual transmitter and reciever - about 5 grand incl cables + aditional recording inside the tx wich acsept line level in afirst place :-)
 
Oleg,

Probably the 1K-2K range.. Seems that dual channel below this price point is not common and maybe dangerous.

Regarding recording directly from the board.. Your idea could definitely work. I will definitely consider this approach.

I wanted to go directly to the camera to preserve the sync, and not have to risk to put everything perfectly together in the NLE. I have seen a few videos where the sync was lost over time and it was terrible by the end!

I have looked at the Zaxcom, but my wife would kill me! It is for sure a very interesting approach, and if I could figure a way to generate any kind of income from my adventures, I would have an argument.. The fact that the UHF spectrum is getting full (and if I understand our new US HD over air TV stations will make this worse), means that the digital approach could be better for the long term.

Thanks for the ideas.

Regards,

Chris Aiken
 
Yeah.. I know.. But that would take the fun out of it!

Really I have found several cases where I could have used a wireless system to mic two actors. So, I think I am ready for the investment.

I just want to be sure that if I get a wireless system I can use it in a traditional mode, and also to take board feeds as well.

Has anyone in the group done this? Or are there any suggestions on how to proceed in a wireless way?

Thanks again

Chris Aiken
 
Chris:

Recording out of the board is a good idea and if you record into an Edirol R09 or a ZoomH4 or the like I don't see how the sync would drift.

The wireless option is also do-able but also riskier. For under $2K you could get two Sennheiser G2 systems. They are decent quality but aren't as resistant to intereference as the more expensive systems (Lectrosonics, Zaxcom). These would also be fine for your other, basic & non-demanding wireless needs.

Does the play you need to record have to be 2 channels? If not, you could buy just one system or, even better, you could buy the two systems, each on a different block, and send two mono audio streams from the board to the camera. If one gets hits then perhaps the other will be okay. I should report, however, that there is strong anecdotal evidence that cell phones cause problems for the less robust systems like the G2's. In an auditorium with many cell phones this could be a problem and one way to deal with that would be to get the receivers closer to the transmitters via cable. Heck, the cheapest and safest way to do it would simply to run balanced cables from the board to your camera.

SFX





caiken said:
Yeah.. I know.. But that would take the fun out of it!

Really I have found several cases where I could have used a wireless system to mic two actors. So, I think I am ready for the investment.

I just want to be sure that if I get a wireless system I can use it in a traditional mode, and also to take board feeds as well.

Has anyone in the group done this? Or are there any suggestions on how to proceed in a wireless way?

Thanks again

Chris Aiken
Click to expand...
 
SFX said:
Recording out of the board is a good idea and if you record into an Edirol R09 or a ZoomH4 or the like I don't see how the sync would drift.
Click to expand...

I would guarantee drift if shooting a long event. Which is not say an external recorder is not a good idea especially if you are using w/l to get audio to cam.

If you plan to use one long continous take you can hide an audio cut somewhere where there is not primary sound (dialog, music, etc).

Along these lines and within your budget, under 2k, you can buy 2 G2 wireless and an external flash recorder. If you are happy with the wireless results then Disco, if not then you have a bit of syncing to do but at least you won't be screwed.

Open up your budget a bit and the Zaxcom is a wise investment as you will be able monitor the audio being record at the tx. The former solution always runs the risk of something going wrong (ie peaked levels) on the recorder and you won't know until its too late.

Good luck
 
Can you tell me what would drift? The HVX? Even if one of these machines did drift, what it it be...a 100th of a second every hour? I think you'd be okay!

I would love to have the a Zaxcom system and agree that if you make money doing ENG work it could be an "investment" in a way. However, with all due respect to the fellow who asked the question, I don't think shooting high school plays for free will justify spending $5K for camera sends!



wabbit said:
I would guarantee drift if shooting a long event. Which is not say an external recorder is not a good idea especially if you are using w/l to get audio to cam.

If you plan to use one long continous take you can hide an audio cut somewhere where there is not primary sound (dialog, music, etc).

Along these lines and within your budget, under 2k, you can buy 2 G2 wireless and an external flash recorder. If you are happy with the wireless results then Disco, if not then you have a bit of syncing to do but at least you won't be screwed.

Open up your budget a bit and the Zaxcom is a wise investment as you will be able monitor the audio being record at the tx. The former solution always runs the risk of something going wrong (ie peaked levels) on the recorder and you won't know until its too late.

Good luck
Click to expand...
 
How about some nice long XLR cables?

I have done several plays and they are always a nightmare for video. The lights are always too bright or too dark, especially when one actor is wearing white and the guy standing next to him is wearing black. You have to pull exposure and focus at the same time...uggh.

but back to the sound issues-

Usually, not all the actors have mics, and possibly some or all of the band doesn't either. Even if they do, the mix you need for the video will be WAY different than the mix they use live. You also need to get the audience laughss and cheers (hopefully) as well, or it won't sound natural and be flat to watch. If you can take a feed from the board, with that $35 XLR cable, then buy yourself the sweetest shotgun you want and put it on a stand high in the middle/ back of the theater so you can mix it in post to have the perfect balance between good "live" feel and intelligability.

Now I see that you want to roam around- Well, just go as far as those xlrs will take you, or better yet, use a second camera and send the audio to it. What are you gonna do while you're shaking the camera all over trying to move and the show is still going on?
 
SFX said:
Can you tell me what would drift? The HVX? Even if one of these machines did drift, what it it be...a 100th of a second every hour? I think you'd be okay!
Click to expand...


Yes the HVX and more like an eighth a second every hour. Even on Varicams you need lockits in order to not have to jam constantly. DVX/HVX and the like don't publish the specs but two of them easily drift a frame or more in under 20 minutes that is worse then 5ppm each.

Add a recorder like the Zoom which is not going to have better then consumer gear crystals and you could easily get drift in under 10 minutes, depending which direction the camera and recorder drift. Over 2 hours (average for a performance piece) and sync could be off by over a half a second by the end.

I believe there was a recent thread by someone who got burned by this very issue.

With a head and tail slate (or other common source like w/l transmission to cam) and you can calculate drift over course of shoot and make small frame cuts to correct. Time consuming but easy enough.

Cheers
 
Many thanks.


wabbit said:
Yes the HVX and more like an eighth a second every hour. Even on Varicams you need lockits in order to not have to jam constantly. DVX/HVX and the like don't publish the specs but two of them easily drift a frame or more in under 20 minutes that is worse then 5ppm each.

Add a recorder like the Zoom which is not going to have better then consumer gear crystals and you could easily get drift in under 10 minutes, depending which direction the camera and recorder drift. Over 2 hours (average for a performance piece) and sync could be off by over a half a second by the end.

I believe there was a recent thread by someone who got burned by this very issue.

With a head and tail slate (or other common source like w/l transmission to cam) and you can calculate drift over course of shoot and make small frame cuts to correct. Time consuming but easy enough.

Cheers
Click to expand...
 
Everyone,

Sorry for such a delay in replying to all the posts. I had to make a quick trip (Sun->Wed) to Germany, and didn't have access to wireless. I returned yesterday afternoon, and drove directly from the airport to film the dress rehearsal!

So, both energy and time forced a very simple solution. After propping my eyelids open with toothpicks, I took the group's wisdom and kept it simple. I used a direct cable solution from the center of house board, and cabled directly to the camera. This worked great!

Being tethered was not bad. Actually roaming around without some kind of "steadycam" support would never have worked. To shoot this venue correctly would have required a 3 camera shoot, but I can dream....

The tech department had rented a 16 channel wireless system for the actors, and given the trouble they had during the performance, I understand now how critical a wireless investment will be. Drop out, noise, level adjustment are all issues. So, it really opened my eyes.

But I do have a question.

Following the last posts in the thread regarding drift, is there any way to record the sound from the board and let the recorder listen across a single wireless channel the TC from the camera?

This way a dropout would not be as critical, just a trouble of alignment in the NLE?

Has anyone ever seen this approach? Does it make sense?

Thanks again to the group.

Chris Aiken
 
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