In need of advise from my woes.

L

Lander

Member
Hi everyone,

I'm kind of new here and with video. I'm an audio engineer branching my company into video. Once I decided to take the financial plunge into video I began educating myself for 4 months reading all I could about video production. I read everyday about it still.

Excited about the new branch of the studio I decided to build an indi rig based on everything I have read and what I felt would suit my needs creatively and financially. I decided to go with a Letus Ex, hv20 and bought a number of fast Nikkor primes, all appropriate hardware and a focus monitor. I felt young again in the excitement reminiscing of my younger years as a fine art photographer with the ability to capture it in motion picture format today. I assembled the rig and traveled to Europe for my first real footage, Europe's beauty, and had problems, still unresolved today, with my Letus extreme and Letus Direct.

Printed on all my footage is a pattern, finally isolated to the internal glass last week from tests, static and unrelated to the ground glass, confirmed by a video producer local to me here in S.E. Pennsylvania. This producer was to be the source of my first gigs, starting with 2 music videos. It ended with me being fired due to this pattern anomaly printed on my footage, mainly sky patches, that is viewable starting at f2 and totally unusable at f4. Through this time I had sent the adapter back to Letus Direct, to Hien, and he said he could not find anything wrong with it, but he replaced the GG. I received it back and it still had the same problem, a pattern printed in front of the gg.

My test isolating the pattern from the ground glass is here in case you wish to see for yourself: http://woodcreststudio.com/letus/grain_footage/
The avi's are coded with the cineform codec and there is a wmv one that my be easier to view in your video player. Look closely, the gg's movement is being captured at 1/100th of a second and it's movement is behind a static pattern. The white box is a good spot to see it first then you'll notice it across the entire frame, especially on larger monitors.

Anyway, Hien feels it is normal gg noise where my results do not. I don't know what to do here. All the excitement has vanished along with the first work that was planned to offset the startup cost of the company, however I still have a reality based documentary that will begin this spring and will last for a year, for now at least.

I have a nice lens assortment that took 2 months to assemble that I could sell and just move way from the whole adapter setup but I feel the dof would allow the documentary to stand out when it is played on TV. I feel it would be a "hook" visually for the viewers much like a chorus melody in a song. But I question the problem with this adapter, the need for low light compatibility, and I have been just burned out with the whole experience so far, exchanging maybe one email a day with Letus Direct and getting nowhere for the last month.

I'm not sure what to do. I hope some of you may have some encouraging words for me and maybe a suggestion for a movement in direction. I will entertain what you have to say for the passion here of video is what drew me and your comments in the threads I have read have revealed to me that what I am looking for. I'm just not there yet.

Sincerely,

Tom
 
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Lets think about this for a minute.
1- You had the money to go to europe for the shoot but bought the cheapest hd camera available.
2- Did you bother to shoot test footage before you flew to europe to film the good stuff ??
3- Sorry if I cant be encouraging but it seems that you put the cart before the horse.
4- hopefully with either a better camera or more experience you will resolve the problem.
5- I've seen some great footage from the hv20 posted here and else where but I've always felt that dumping all that money into a $700 camera is like trying to make a chevrolet into a masseratti.

Dont take these comments personally, there just my feelings on the subject.
 
The mistake was not in testing before investing in a trip. I'm not sure if its the adaptor limitations, the result of compression, or lack of experience. It might be worth renting or borrowing a camera to test your adaptor. It's possible that it might be due to the HV20 + lack of experience. And you definitely don't want to show your producer troublesome footage.

I agree about the car reference. The HV20 is a consumer tool. Sure you can hammer nails with your shoe, but your shoe will bear the brunt.
 
Thanks for your comments Sundance and Issac.

Issac, the print on the footage moves along with the physical adapter. If it is loose on the HV20 with the 1/100th shutter speed, rotating the adapter moves the static pattern as well as the gg's movement. I have an idea of how to operate the camera. I shot stills for quite some time. I'm not being defensive, I'm not a complete new user to video, no where near the experience I have with audio, but methodical in my approach to most things.

So you feel I should step away from the adapter setup and hone down to a higher quality camera? I went this way for a safe investment. The lenses and hardware hold their value well. It was my intention to upgrade the camera once the music videos were complete and the hvx200 used market prices came down a bit.

Thanks again for your comments.

Tom
 
Tom: I dont know what camera you're using , first of all is the pattern visible when you remove the adapter from the camera and you look at the groundglass with a lens mounted on it? Are you using a close up adapter? are there any filters beween the adapter and the camera lens? also a very important thing are you using lens shade or matte box with the system? It sounds to me like internal reflection, and does it happen with all your lenses? This has to be isolated one step at a time.

There are many questions but everything has to be taken into account. Check out my adapter at www.freewebs.com/wvargas and also on the HV20 modifications on www.youtube.com/user/vargas095

Winston
 
Tom let me put my 2 cents in here, after 35 years of shooting video professionally I can tell you that a little so called consumer camera today like the HV20 is putting out better video then the cameras I was using back in the early 80's. I've gone through Ikegami, Sony Betacam, DVcams, DVCpro 50 and there is one thing they all have in common... They are CAMERAS.. The camera has nothing to do with the problem you're having. In the right hands the camera can do a heck of a lot more then they did years ago. There are people that walk into a camera store to buy a PROFESSIONAL CAMERA , and then there are professional photographers that simply buy a camera.. Who do you think gets the best results ?

Let's try to figure out what the problem is with your system, because if it's the camera then it's defective. If it's not the camera then no matter what camera you put in front of the adapter you're going to have the same problem.

Winston
 
This is a known problem with the Letus and all ground glass adapters. You have to keep the iris on your camera open as far as it will go. Stop down too much and your depth of field increases and you end up seeing the ground glass pattern. It is also not advisable to stop down the lens in front of your adapter too much either. If you're shooting outside and need to cut the light, use ND filters instead of controlling the iris. If you bought an adapter, you bought it to get 35mm depth of field, which you only get when the iris is all the way open anyway. Also keep the shutter speed at 1/48th or 1/60...Also, not sure the adapter is worth the hassle if you're shooting a documentary. It's too cumbersome for run and gun work and you need at least two people to operate successfully, one for camera, one to pull focus.
 
Actually, from his sample video, this doesn't look like the normal adapter problem. He indicated that he was at f2-f4 at around 1/100, which is well within the safe operating range. That's not a grain pattern, but I have no idea what's going on; it's a ground glass shaped outline.

Lander, have you try testing your Extreme on another camera to isolate the problem?
 
Lander, I am sorry to hear about your bad luck. This is a complicated field to be in, with some weird problems that can really mess with our heads. I hope all problems can be worked out for your next project.

If I were in your position, I wouldn't worry too much about using a 35mm adapter just yet. You said that you were just getting started with video/filmmaking. While an HV20 is surely a lot of bang-for-your-buck, I think that you might benefit more from a better camera. You mentioned the HVX. If you are shooting films, docs, and music videos, then the HVX has proven itself to be a worthy camera. You could do a search for HVX footage shot without an adapter. There should be plenty in the HVX section. You may also want to consider the Sony EX-1 XD-Cam. It is similar to the HVX in many ways.

Might I also suggest, a Canon XH-A1. It is more affordable than an HVX, both in initial cost and in media cost (mini DV tape vs. P2 cards). Check out some of disjecta's work. I believe that he currently uses a Letus adapter sometimes, however, he has posted a lot of clips that were shot without an adapter. I think his work shows that you don't need an adapter to create good material. From my experience, the A1's stock lens has very good DOF control.

If I were you, I would first determine that the HV20 is not the problem, then you can always keep it as a B-cam or sell it to put money towards a new camera.

Another factor to consider with DOF is that it is a tool that should enhance your narrative, not something that should be a gimmick or something that you use to make people think that you shot on film. Personally, I have seen plenty of adapter footage that, yes had a shallow DOF, but other than that didn't make me think that it was film. While on the other hand, I have seen plenty of footage shot without any kind of adapter that looked very film-like or even fooled me into thinking it was film.

I know you may not want to hear someone tell you to scrap the 35mm adaptor. If you really think about it, the 35mm film or cinema look comes from the combination of many factors:

Lighting
Production Design
Composition
Camera Movement
Acting Quality
Director's Vision
Sound (looks you got that covered)
Score
Color Correction / Grading (if you lit properly, then this is where you can really make the image appear more like film)
And most important of all . . . . Concept / Story / Script (I know, a doc might not need a script, but I am assuming you have a basic concept and outline)

For what you will spend on getting a proper DOF adapter package put together, you could theoretically buy: a dolly, light kit, tripod, jib/crane, and magic bullet looks for color grading. I've heard it said by members on this board, that for all that you gain with a 35mm adapter, you lose a lot in the process. Hand-held portability goes out the window. Your camera's low light ability will gone down the toilet, forcing you to bust out the 1K or 2K lights, sometimes even indoors. You might need a dedicated crew member to pull focus. There are just so many complications with an adapter that cancel out some of the benefits of owning a small size HD camera.

I don't want to sound like I'm some sort of veteran of the cinema industry, but when you are starting out, it is hard enough getting everything listed above right. The last thing you need is to have to deal with a problematic 35mm adapter. Down the line, when you are more confident in your abilities and have built up your skill levels, then you always have the option of adding an adapter to your production workflow. If I were in your position, and knew what I do now (and trust me -- I've made some HUGE mistakes when I was starting out). I would invest in lighting gear instead of an adapter. Instead of spending time trying to get an adapter to work, I would be learning lighting and camera techniques. Good lighting is essential, whether you are using an adaptor or not. Whether you are shooting with an HV20 or a RED One, lighting is essential.

Another area is audio. You may already have all the mics you need, but again, I would invest in good audio gear before worrying about an adapter.

Also, bear in mind that since you plan on shooting a doc, you will most likely not have a great deal of time and as much control over the events in front of the camera, at least not as much as if you were shooting a fictional narrative or music video.

It sounds like you are in a good position already -- you have sound and photography experience. A lot of filmmakers don't understand sound as well as they should (I know because I am one of them). I hope this possibly too long post has been helpful. Good luck with the doc.
 
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