Please Help Me Buy An "Indie" Audio Setup!!

S

scribbles

Active member
This april I start production on a feature length film. We are shooting with the Hvx200 and Sg Pro. We already have a simple rode boompole, shockmount, and NTG-2. I would like to add on to what we already have, price isn't a huge issue but please don't recomend $4000 microphones.
There are so many choices out there, after reading on these forums for days I feel like there is still so much to learn, and with so many different opinions and reviews its hard for me to make an informed decision. I live in edmonton, alberta and it is very hard to rent anything of value, since nothing is available to rent(or it's way too expensive and marked up...eg.Hvx200 for 1 day= 250 dollars) I can not rent different mics to test them out, I have to make a smart decision and buy what I need the most.
The majority of the film will take place indoors in noisy environments. A mall, a party, a movie lineup, etc. Conversation will often take place between more than two people. There will be a fair amount of camera movement, some handheld and dolly stuff. What do you think we need the most? Good 'indoor' microphones? More boom poles/shockmounts/zeppelins? A mixer or pre amp? All of the above? Do I need to buy all rode microphones now so the sound is matched?? AHhh!This is all so above my head right now I appreciate your help very very much. Anyone who can inform me on what we need most(as specific as possible) I will praise until my days are done.

THANKYOU!!
 
Hi Scribbles:

I am going to recommend that first you read up and get educated about the basics. Read this http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/location_sound.html

Once you have read that, I am going to recommend that you hire a professional sound mixer. Regardless of the gear you own, without knowledge, experience and good judgement, you wil not obtain good sound for your film project. Realistically you will probably achieve really bad sound.

I interviewed the senior sound editor at Technicolor Sound's feature group last week for a magazine article I am writing and some of the questions I asked him were things like, "what is the single most important thing for an indie film producer to consider if they want their film to sound great?". His answer was, "hire the best sound mixer you can afford and LISTEN to him/her. BRING THEM on all of your location scouts and consult with them before you commit to a location. You have already listed three VERY difficult enviroments to record good dialog in, even for an experienced sound mixer. With yourself or a neophyte sound person, your film will undoubtedly sound bad.

Production sound is a science and an art and without the knowledge and experience, you are fighting an uphill battle. I know a bit about sound and own a full sound package myself. I use it less and less these days because I keep getting shoots in difficult sound situations and I am busy DPing and producing so I bite the bullet and hire really talented sound mixers. I have never regretted it. Single person interviews? I do the sound on those myself. Live action presenter in front of huge audience with Q&A? Hire a sound team. Indie film with whispered dialog between lovers? Hire a great sound mixer.

Best,

Dan
 
Hi Scribbles,

You gave us a bit of a start discussing your environment and gear but we'd need to know far more before we could provide intelligent advise. Rather than go through several rounds of Q&A, here's a link that will help wet your appetite for mic considerations, but there's far more to audio then simply the gear. My guess is the audio engineer will certainly need to include some lavaliers, etc, but perhaps ADR will be required.

BTW, I'm with Dan - at least until you're up to speed, getting an audio pro for your more challenging scenes would be a very good investment.

Good luck, Michael
 
hi all and thank you very much for your help! 'puredrifting', i have already read that kenstone article, it was very helpful but still left me with many unanswered questions. I too think hiring a pro would be the best option, however this is a very low budget film. Lets get real here, this is ten or so 18 year olds trying to make a film. Even if I could get the money, via grant, loan, whatever...I'm a tad scared to hire a pro. The entire film is going to be shot without a script, only a basic guideline for how the scenes are going to play out, I'd be nervous to have this pro audio guy shaking his head at our 'amateur-ness'. As well, the reason I like doing everything fairly spontaneous with my friends is that we're not nervous around each other and that way I can get great performances out of them, I'm worried this audio dude will mess things up. Do you think my worries are valid? Again, I'm sure prices vary, but for a 'fairly good' audio guy how much per day? Do they charge per hour? Think they give discounts to young aspiring filmmakers? I know my questions probably make me seem like a complete idiot/audio newb, but I can assure you we all take this film very seriously and everyone is willing to give 100% to make it better. All of your advice is much appreciated. Any more tips, comments, ideas, questions? Anything you can offer is a huge help to me, thankyou again
 
oops sorry oleg, i have(am willing to spend) around 3000. however i would be completely broke. i would 'PREFER' to spend under 1500-1700
 
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You have a boom and a decent shotgun, I would get a hyper (Oktava or one of those Chinese mic's Oleg is selling). And get some wind protection. I would also go for a mic preamp/ mixer like the MixPre, something with a decent limiter. Since you have very little experience and are working on a film with essentially no script a good limiter set so you can't clip might be a good investment. I would save the rest of the $ for post. It's a horror flick you are going to need post. That hyper will work well for Foley, and you will be smashing a lot of disgusting stuff in Foley, probably. I post in general I would avoid buying sounds, maybe one or two off Sound Dogs, but the sounds that are in your budget are likely to be cheesy. Much better take your new mic and record what you need. If your really stuck for something email me and I'll see what I have.
It's good to be up front about who you are and what you expect to do. Too many posters come in with the "I have $100 and want to have GREAT HOLLYWOOD sound", just doesn't happen. Or should that be "doesn't just happen"?
By the By if you haven't read it take a look at Stu Maschwitz's "The DV Rebel's Guide". It's loaded with things you folks should know.
 
scribbles said:
hi all and thank you very much for your help! 'puredrifting', i have already read that kenstone article, it was very helpful but still left me with many unanswered questions. I too think hiring a pro would be the best option, however this is a very low budget film. Lets get real here, this is ten or so 18 year olds trying to make a film. Even if I could get the money, via grant, loan, whatever...I'm a tad scared to hire a pro. The entire film is going to be shot without a script, only a basic guideline for how the scenes are going to play out, I'd be nervous to have this pro audio guy shaking his head at our 'amateur-ness'. As well, the reason I like doing everything fairly spontaneous with my friends is that we're not nervous around each other and that way I can get great performances out of them, I'm worried this audio dude will mess things up. Do you think my worries are valid? Again, I'm sure prices vary, but for a 'fairly good' audio guy how much per day? Do they charge per hour? Think they give discounts to young aspiring filmmakers? I know my questions probably make me seem like a complete idiot/audio newb, but I can assure you we all take this film very seriously and everyone is willing to give 100% to make it better. All of your advice is much appreciated. Any more tips, comments, ideas, questions? Anything you can offer is a huge help to me, thankyou again
Click to expand...

Hi:

Well, yes, most sound mixers are pros and yes, they might shake their heads at how you are shooting your film, but so what?

The sound mixer might "mess things up" by letting you know when you are shooting in a bad sound location or when you are blocking in such a way that it is impossible to mic a scene, but I am sure that with some hunting you could find a younger person who would fit in with your crowd, yet would still be a pro and get the job done.

A good sound mixer in L.A. will be five to six hundred a day, not sure about elsewhere lately although I did hire one in Miami last year, same rates there. If you are serious about wanting your audio to be good, it will be worth it. Also, you can strike a deal with a sound mixer if you tell them that you will hire them for multiple days for your film and that you are a student. If you have a body of work to show that illustrates your professionalism and talent, that would help. If you have a killer script, that helps a lot. But if you have never made a film and don't have a killer script, it will be much more difficult to get a talented sound mixer to sign on, regardless of the money. All pros like to work for people who know what they are doing.

Good luck,

Dan
 
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you can find used shure 33 or sd mix pre for 500-700
used boom pole for 400-600
oktava or my chiniz for 200+
psc suspention for octava - 60 usd
used rycote for rode -300
used g-2 wireless with dicent lavalier for - 500
if you sell the rode and your boom pole and add 300 - you can get decent mkh416t
camera mixer snake , extention cable,microphone cables - 400usd

of course thetre is other way , buy better stuff and sell it after the moovie finished
 
alright, well from the sounds if it i'm going to buy(regardless of whether i get an audio pro)
-new headphones
-mixer
-1 microphone for indoor use
-some sort of wireless contraption

could you(oleg or puredrifting) please recommend to me what i should purchase?
if i had to make a fairly uninformed decision today i would buy
-sony MDR7506 headphones
-the shure 33 mixer oleg recommended
-hypercardiod mike for indoor use?
-sennheiser g2 wireless system?

hows that sound? pun intended.
 
Hi Scribbles:

The 7506s are the industry standard and are fine, I own three pairs of them.

While I am sure Oleg has his reasons, personally I hate the Shure mixers, I used to own an FP-32 and have used the FP-33 quite a bit, an old client of mine had one that we would use on a daily basis. To my ear, they are noisy and kind of a "blunt instrument old school" kind of mixer. They are not terrible, just not my favorite. I will say that Shure has some of the best customer service I have ever encountered and when my FP-32a broke, they were quick and efficient about fixing it. I own and really like the PSC mixers, the Sound Devices mixers are pretty much the most popular ones on the market, they are good but a little expensive for a beginner package.

If you are going to buy a hypercardioid, I would consider the Sennheiser MKH-50 as well as the Schoeps CMC641, they are both outstanding although Oleg doesn't seem to think that the Schoeps is worth the $$. Schoeps did just have a price increase so maybe is right, but it is a very good mic too. Have you listened to the mics here? http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html

I hear good things about the G2 system, Sennheiser is sending me one to test, its the cheap wireless of choice although I just received a new Audio-Technica 1800 series setup that is very nice too. It has a two channel receiver, meaning you can run two wireless transmitters into the one receiver. Nice. I own the older Audio-Technica 100 series and they have been GREAT cheap wireless systems. Don't go below $500.00 per channel though, pretty much everything in that range is junk and the really good wireless systems are $3,000.00 to $6,000.00 per channel.

Good luck,

Dan
 
hey thanks a ton everyone for your help. this is all really interesting and helpful for me. yeah i listened to all those mics 'puredrifting', very cool.
excuse my newbness but from what i can gather hypers are good for indoor audio? if you could recommend anything better that you think would work, from anything as simple as an indoor interview to a conversation between two-four people? as i am a fan of dolly and steadicam i assume you would recomend the smaller, wireless stuff, but i am not opposed at all to booming or whatever nescessary.
is it a problem mixing mic brands? for instance if i know i'm buying the sennheiser G2 system, would it be better to buy the sennheiser MKH-50(as opposed to the schoeps CMC641), if so, why? sound differences? thankyou!
 
puredrifting said:
Hi Scribbles:

The 7506s are the industry standard and are fine, I own three pairs of them.

While I am sure Oleg has his reasons, personally I hate the Shure mixers, I used to own an FP-32 and have used the FP-33 quite a bit, an old client of mine had one that we would use on a daily basis. To my ear, they are noisy and kind of a "blunt instrument old school" kind of mixer. They are not terrible, just not my favorite. I will say that Shure has some of the best customer service I have ever encountered and when my FP-32a broke, they were quick and efficient about fixing it. I own and really like the PSC mixers, the Sound Devices mixers are pretty much the most popular ones on the market, they are good but a little expensive for a beginner package.

If you are going to buy a hypercardioid, I would consider the Sennheiser MKH-50 as well as the Schoeps CMC641, they are both outstanding although Oleg doesn't seem to think that the Schoeps is worth the $$. Schoeps did just have a price increase so maybe is right, but it is a very good mic too. Have you listened to the mics here? http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html

I hear good things about the G2 system, Sennheiser is sending me one to test, its the cheap wireless of choice although I just received a new Audio-Technica 1800 series setup that is very nice too. It has a two channel receiver, meaning you can run two wireless transmitters into the one receiver. Nice. I own the older Audio-Technica 100 series and they have been GREAT cheap wireless systems. Don't go below $500.00 per channel though, pretty much everything in that range is junk and the really good wireless systems are $3,000.00 to $6,000.00 per channel.

Good luck,

Dan
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about shure and sd mixers , the people who run sd came from shure :-)
so the qoality build quitthe same
about what shure to look for , only 33 as it the quest and still supportable
dont touch 32a or old 32 which could be use for headphones distro only .
about hyper mics - the guy asked for less 2 grand overall - no need to point him to 2000 $ mic which does the same ,

more different( flexability ) stuff is alwais better then 1 exxelent mic - thats the rule for someone who dont have cash
 
scribbles said:
hey thanks a ton everyone for your help. this is all really interesting and helpful for me. yeah i listened to all those mics 'puredrifting', very cool.
excuse my newbness but from what i can gather hypers are good for indoor audio? if you could recommend anything better that you think would work, from anything as simple as an indoor interview to a conversation between two-four people? as i am a fan of dolly and steadicam i assume you would recomend the smaller, wireless stuff, but i am not opposed at all to booming or whatever nescessary.
is it a problem mixing mic brands? for instance if i know i'm buying the sennheiser G2 system, would it be better to buy the sennheiser MKH-50(as opposed to the schoeps CMC641), if so, why? sound differences? thankyou!
Click to expand...
there is no problem mixing mics as long they are not support same actors in the same shot , then it alwais better go with same mics so the iq in post will not go mad
about mixing wierless with any boom mic - we do it all the time , doesnt really matter what brand is he boom , much important that you will have good capsule on your tx amd low noise , also keep the wierless on separate track to make the iq eacy to match the boom ( it wouldnt match completly but with noise fllor and ambient , musuic , sfx it would come pretty nice if you know what are you doing )
for small budget like yours , more important control the invaerment you shot then spend on schoeps
by the way - loose the rode pool and if you can repalce the ntg-2 with something better for extiriors -
even 20 years sennheiser me-80 sounds better
 
The shure FP33 is way more versatile than the mixpre, and the latest serial numbers are not as noisy as the earlier one. More than enough as a first mixer. I think the Mixpre is overrated because how good the 302 is and we transfer the pedigree to the little boy. But is a pain on the rear with the very poor battery life, not line level input, just line level output ( this one is a minor one), phantom power link to the two channels and JUST TWO INPUTS, what makes the mixpre closer to a pre-amp with meters than a real mixer. it's a nice sounding tool, but very limited. I would never choose a Fp33 over a 302, but for sure I'll take the Fp33 over the mixpre, for any gig. Even if I don't like the Fp33 meters either.
If you wan a nice hyper, for $750, go with Neumann KM185. Great sounding mic, doesn't have pad, not roll off, but I never have RF problems with that guy and sounds real good.
 
i never found fp to noisy , the 32 and 32 a yes , but the 33 is one exellent small device , also the good thing is you can adjust the limmites( in alabaratory) , 48/12 ph , ms listening , and many other feature
a;lso the low cut could be changed with different resistors then original ( all the info on shure site) , way bettr deal then mix pre for normal work
 
Oleg 2 said:
i never found fp to noisy , the 32 and 32 a yes , but the 33 is one exellent small device , also the good thing is you can adjust the limmites( in alabaratory) , 48/12 ph , ms listening , and many other feature
a;lso the low cut could be changed with different resistors then original ( all the info on shure site) , way bettr deal then mix pre for normal work
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Glad you say that. i though I was going deaf. I don't find the Fp33 noisy at all, while everybody here keeps saying that is a very noisy mixer. The very earlier ones were a little too noisy I heard.
BTW, something noisy is the headphone output of the mixpre.
 
rafaeldelauz said:
Glad you say that. i though I was going deaf. I don't find the Fp33 noisy at all, while everybody here keeps saying that is a very noisy mixer. The very earlier ones were a little too noisy I heard.
BTW, something noisy is the headphone output of the mixpre.
Click to expand...

Yes, the one I used to use was when they were first introduced. It was noisy and I had to send it back for repairs twice in the first year. Glad to hear that they sound as if they worked out their QC issues on the later ones.

Man, I am dating myself, the FP33 was introduced a long time ago.

Dan
 
hey everyone sorry to keep picking at you.
i forgot i had a 1000 dollar check coming from the government.
i was thinking of buying the sennheiser 816 in replacement of my rode ntg-2. anyone have anything good or bad to say about it? also i've seen it on ebay for around 700, seems like an amazing deal...am i missing something????
what about that other sennheiser short shotgun, is it 'better'? i've read good things about both, its hard to decide.
also, no one has refferred me to a 'good indoor mic', still kind of clueless! ah!
thanks again.....
evan
 
scribbles said:
hey everyone sorry to keep picking at you.
i forgot i had a 1000 dollar check coming from the government.
i was thinking of buying the sennheiser 816 in replacement of my rode ntg-2. anyone have anything good or bad to say about it? also i've seen it on ebay for around 700, seems like an amazing deal...am i missing something????
what about that other sennheiser short shotgun, is it 'better'? i've read good things about both, its hard to decide.
also, no one has refferred me to a 'good indoor mic', still kind of clueless! ah!
thanks again.....
evan
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You already got more than 5 recommendations for "interior mics"
Octava or Oleg's chinyz
Puredrifting recommended Mkh50 or Schoeps CMC 641
I told you about the relative cheap neumann km185.

I guess when you talk about the short sennheiser shotgun you mean the MKh60. it's very quiet, is probably the most reliable mic out there. I'm not crazy about it's sound but it's decent on exterior shoot.
 
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