Help: Lighting a small stage, band and public, open air

T

tomperson

Active member
Imagine you have to budget the lighting for a small music gig.

All you know is that:

- It involves a duo playing on a small stage.
- There will be something like 100/300 people.
- It will be shot mostly with available light at dusk, open air (in the street).
- The exact locations are unknown yet.
- There will be 3 cameras. One for band close ups, one for band /audience wide shots, and one for audience close ups.

What would you ask for?

- How many lights, what kind, and of what power would you suggest for a bit of fill light of the band? Where would you place them? (above, below, on the sides, etc)
- How many lights, what kind, and of what power would you suggest for a bit of fill light of the public? Where would you place them?
- What else to have into account? Any other extra equipment?

To complicate things more, the budget is ultra ultra tight, so, the minimal the setup, the better.

Any ideas will be more than appreciated!!!
 
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The first question I have is : I have 20 more questions....
What kind of music is it ? LOL
Budget ? Small , I get it.. How small ?
Narrow down it's location, or actucally, get them to commit to a location, and consider your power needs, restrictions and access. Outdoors, your going to need HMI pars...
 
Music: mostly acoustic re-versions of popular songs. From Pet Shop Boys to Italian 60s music, through Cardigans, local pop songs and who knows what else...

Budget: I don't know, really. Ultra small. As small as it gets. The thing is we are trying to get funding from a government grant, so, the smaller the budget, the better. I think that the whole thing (lights, cameras, crew, transport, whatever) shouldn't be more than usd 6000. Most people will work for free. Nevertheless that number probably doesn't say much, given that we live in different countries...

The locations will be two poor neighborhoods in a city far away from the capital of my country. We just don't know *exactly* what neighbors, but the idea comes across I guess. So, we plan to set up a small stage, play one day in one neighborhood and the next move on to the other. Lightness, easy set up and portability is a must. This is a total guerrilla production. If it was for them, we will even get rid of the whole lighting thing, but the video production will suffer, so my best bet is to budget a small, light, CHEAP set up.

I hope this extra info is enough...as is all I have :cry:

So, you say HMI lights. How many? What power? They should be discreet, as we don't want them to be evident on the video footage.

What else should we have? Grips, whatever...

THANKS guys, your help is invaluable for a beginning folk like me!
 
You want to start rolling cameras at dawn ? How long will the group play ?
I see access to power sufficient to run several HMI's as an issue, unless you can plug lights into nearby homes , the power from local businesses, or portable generators .
HMI's or any other lights under 2.5 k of power will not offer much light , especially if you want to be discrete, and have your lights away from the musicians.
Lights larger than say a 1200 watt hmi also require large, heavy light stands. Their legs covered with several sand bags, and since your outdoors, perhaps even having the lights tied off to keep them from tipping over in the wind...
You MIGHT get by with 3-5 1200 watt HMI's, with spot and medium lenses in them directed at and from the edge of the talent. But I'm afraid that these fixtures may be on camera, especially in wide shots.
Every venue is different and requires a fresh approach to lighting. Time of day, the weather, access to power, staging and placement. Since I can't see the venue, this is the best I can offer. If it were me, I would want at least 3- 2.5 k HMI's or better yet, 2 -4K lights and a few 2.5 lights for edge , fill and back light...
 
Yes - As Filmat11 said, it is hard to suggest things without knowing your limitations. If you are trying to get by on barely any budget, anything you can afford will be nice. what you have going for you is that it is a small band, small stage.
If you could just get a soft overhead type of light (even a 500 watt bulb and china ball) rigged beside them, or even one to each side, that would help. If it is really dawn then tungsten should be fine, just white balance to the lights, and to the overall light, as see which looks the best. Take some half and full blue gel if you need it to be cooler. You can place it inside the ball, away from the light.
If one of your cameras is shooting the crowd from behind, or to the side of the band then some of that same light should help them. Just know that you may have to keep checking your iris as the sun gets brighter and stop down.
The 2nd best thing you could do would be to get an edge light on them. Use something with some throw (pars or such) that you can position out of your camera frame. If there is sun you could use a larger (4x4 +) mirror perhaps.
That is about as cheap as I can figure. Look around and see what kind of fixtures you can adapt from friends and family.

Try a day or two before the show, and see what it looks like. Heck, even try it tomorrow and show us the pics, then we can all better help you.

Good Luck,
Wilson
 
After reading your suggestions I realise that maybe our original plan is plainly UNREALISTIC given our small budget. Big HMI lights are beautiful, but at more than $100 per unit/day, they are a big expensive, and they would imply a more complex electrical setup...which accounts for even more money...

Fortunately, we can choose the time of the day the gig/shooting will take place, so maybe there's a possible workaround. We could start rolling cameras like 80 minutes before dusk, and try to finish just as dawn happens, or extend just a few minutes into it. That way our needs for lighting will be smaller.

Band:
Maybe that way we can get away with a smaller setup for the band, using say a 400watt HMI fixture closer to them? Maybe we can put the lights just below the stage, aiming at the band in low angle, thus avoiding being visible in the wide shots?

Public:
And maybe we can plainly forget lighting the public, or just aiming to light the ones closer to the stage? We won't be able to film those guys that are deep into the crowd anyway, so why bother lighting the whole thing? Another possibility would be to use a portable light and instructing the public cameraman to film even closer to people using just that light for fill?

The key here is money. We don't have it. But we still think the project should be done. So we better get creative and find as many workarounds as possible.

What do you think of this plan? Any other possibilities? What if we go tungsten?

As for the venue, it's just a small stage, in the middle of the street. Not much more.

I know I may be asking for too much, but as I said, I don't really have much info, and I either do it this way or don't do it at all, and this is a very good opportunity for me, so any help you could provide, any possible ideas or suggestions will be highly appreciated by a newbie such as me...
 
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First things first. When I said DAWN, i should have written DUSK. My stupid mistake. Sorry, I'm no native english speaker...and...you know...things happen. Now I get why you didn't seem to understand my problem, folks!!!

Wilson, I just read your advice, It seems you were typing it just at the same time i was writing. I think we're now getting closer to a sound idea. I think getting some 500Watt bulbes is much closer to our budget. And the china balls idea sounds perfect for soft light!!! I was struggling trying to think how to get a soft light without resorting to devices that would be too obvious (for the camera as well as the public!). I thank you for that idea! I even think it may actually look cool.

Any other possible suggestions?
 
So, the most reasonable possible plan would be to have some china balls either above the band or on the sides of the stage, in order to bring some soft light...I like it! I wonder If I can get some china balls that will endure 500Watt lights without burning into flames! What other possibilities can you suggest? How many lights would you think would be ok? How far from the band do you think I could place them without losing effectivity?

Any other ideas?

:bath:YOU GUYS ROCK!
 
re:

re:

This is not difficult. 2 1200W HMI's at 45 degree angles in the front. If you can get a third and hang it as a back light great if not see about a 2K Arri, just remember to gel all lights to the same temp unless your going for a certain look.

If you have access to more I've done a lot with even simple lights like Lowel DP's or even Omni's for some color on the stage.

--
Take Two Visual Media
http://www.take2vm.com
 
Can you hang a truss and rig par cans on that?
That way you're not trying to hide the lighting but sorta featuring it.
 
Heck - You could run a rope from each side of the stage and hand 4-6 china-balls. The larger ones work without any burn issue, just be sure the bulb hangs straight downwards. I would get them about 3 or so feet in front of them, just out of frame. Unless you wanted to make it art of the show and make some kind of light pole, or one on each side. You don't need a backlight, but it might be nice depending on what your background is. You could even use a work light back there. Either rig it up high, far enough to cover both players, or hide it down low on the ground, where their bodies would cover it from the camera. I like the idea of starting with a little daylight (right at dusk) and shooting as it gets dark. It's moody and more interesting and your light travels farther and can be tungsten.
Good Luck!
 
I think HMIs are overkill. I have lit a small outdoor stage at dusk with 4 500w PAR 64s and a couple fresnels for accents, enough for a four-person band. Once you're approaching sunset, it gets beautiful. You don't need enough light to duplicate the sun, just enough to keep the stage looking good as it gets dark.
I'd put 2/3 of your lights on the side of the stage opposite the sun, use the other 1/3 as fill. Stay away from gels except as accents, unless you've got watts to spare. If you have a spot to hang it, put a light behind and above the leader's mic (I used a fresnel spotted down so it would actually be visible before dark). Backlight looks great on performers and really helps when you can't properly light the background.
 
Par-cans are cheap and effective for this kind of concert and are what is actually used in most cases. I can't believe they cost all that much to rent.
 
Ditto on the Par Cans. They are pretty much an industry standard as far as live music events go. I wouldn't bother with film oriented lights because they are not designed for this kind of purpose. Par Cans are cheap, they are easily dimmable, easy to mount, and you can keep them on for hours without too much of a problem. Get as many as you can and use some gels to mix up the colors and make them generally more interesting, hook them up to a dimmer board and you have a nice set up. Big tip: Set up a couple of pars (2 on each side of the stage should do it) facing the audience and flash them every now and then whenever you want to get good crowd shots).

Backlighting is also incredibly important for effect (especially colored backlighting). Live shows are improved greatly by good lighting.
 
Thanks Again!!!

Thanks Again!!!

OK, OK, OK!!! This is starting to look good. Your advice has been invaluable!!!

I talked to the producer of this show, and he told me the stage will be REALLY small, 2x3 meters (6.6x10 foot), 0.5 meters above the ground (1.6 foot). So, there won't be any kind of structure to attach lights to.

I also just discussed on the phone with a friend who has some experience on sets, and between his and your suggestions this seems to be my plan:

- (Z) Use 1 1000W PAR 64 light right in front of the band, behind the main camera for general lighting. At the same height of the performers head.

- (X,Y) Use 2 1000W PAR 64 light at something like 3 meters (10 foot) of each corner of the stage. A little bit above the performers head, facing downwards.

- (W) Use 1 1000W PAR 64 light behind the stage, below the stage line facing upwards to give definition to the performers heads.

All the lights should be on a light stand.

Something like this:

...........W............

---------------------
||||||STAGE|||||||
---------------------

X ......................Y

public public public
............Z..............
public public public
public public public

The cameras will be right in front of the Z light, and next to X (public reactions) and Y (band details).

What do you think of this setup? Any possible flaws? Do you think is this powerful enough to put the lights far from the band? Any suggestions regarding gels and such? Do you think this is enough to light the first rows of public as well? Will this light be soft enough?

The person I just talked on the phone suggested using AMBAR colored gels in order to match the sunset's light, and maybe blue in the (W) light to add a bit of mood, what do you think?

Thanks guys!!!

By the way, these are my tungsten lighting options (copied and pasted from my lights supplier page) along with price per day, maybe you can spot something more appropriate:

CYC & MINI FLOOD
1.000W Cyclorama ARRI US$ 10.00
1.000W Mini Flood ARRI US$ 10.00

OPEN FACE
650W Open ArriLite US$ 12.00
1.000W Open ArriLite US$ 10.00
2.000W Open ArriLite US$ 18.00

SOFTLIGHT
1.000W Softlight ARRI US$ 25.00
2.000W Softlight ARRI US$ 35.00

FRESNEL
300W Fresnel ARRI US$ 10.00
650W Fresnel ARRI US$ 15.00
1.000W Fresnel ARRI Studio US$ 14.00
2.000W Fresnel ARRI Studio US$ 22.00
5.000W Fresnel ARRI Studio US$ 45.00
12.000W Fresnel ARRI Studio US$ 130.00

MAXI & DINOLIGHT
Dinolight Ultralight 12x1000W US$ 150.00
Maxibruto Ultralight 9x1000W US$ 90.00

RUBY 7
ARRI RUBY 7® US$ 120.00

PAR
300W Par56 US$ 12.00
1.000W Par64 US$ 18.00

KITS
Kit DedoLight 4 x 12V 100W US$ 220.00
Kit Arrilite 650 x 4 US$ 55.00
Kit Arri Combo US$ 55.00
Kit Arri Softbank US$ 55.00
 
I'd still stick with the PARs. Set up your lights first, then think about gels. If you think you've got enough light then go ahead and add them. 3200k lights are pretty amber anyway, and any off-color effects generated by the sun are probably favorable and shouldn't be cancelled out. If you were using more fixtures, I'd use blue, but with so few, I'd keep it simple.

Even in concerts, I like to light in terms of key and fill. A front-and-center light may tend to really flatten things out. You also risk getting the camera's shadow in shots.

Draw a line from the setting sun through the band and put a camera facing the band on the other end of that line. That will be the best angle for lots of shots until the sun sets.

If you want light on the audience, you have to be careful not to blind them. Flashing a light over them, or flash-backlighting the stage, can look good in moderation. Otherwise you could backlight the audience but you're going to want 2m stands and lights at least 5m back from the front of the audience. Another option is to use a double-blue gel and light them from the stage. Hopefully it won't be too obnoxious and will still help you expose.
 
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