Money, Money, Money! Give what to who?

Robbie Comeau

Robbie Comeau

Como's back. back again
Hello all,

I got a small problem, but I'm sure I can work it out.

I am making a short horror movie, which I plan to sell.

Once the film is complete, it will be roughly 6-8 minutes. I will then sell it on DVD, with a nice case and cover, for 5 bucks. Nothing right? I'll just sell it around town, and around my school.

My problem:

I have exactly 6 people in this production. Me, my boom, my writer, and three actors.
How would I go upon selling 100 DVDs, and then dividing up the money evenly?
I mean, obviously I should make the most seeing as I am Directing, Filming, Editing, and doing Sound for this.

Should it be some thing like this:

Me- $1.50
Boom- .50
Actor- 1.00
Actor 2- $1.00
Actor 3(Small role)- .50
Writer- .50

(Keep in mind that is what we'll make for every copy sold.)

In the end, if we DID sell 100 copies, here is what we would all make:

Me- $150
Boom- $50
Actor- $100
Actor 2- $100
Actor 3(Small role)- $50
Writer- $50


Would that be something I'd Do?

Now, I would need 100 DVD cases, plus Someone to duplicate AND put the cover in professionally for me. (I know a guy who can do this for cheap)

Say I charge him 100 bucks, and we sell all 100 DVD's. In the end, I'M NOT making ANY money, seeing as I spent the full 100 toward the guy. (Well, I'd make 50 bucks. Woohoo :()

Should I get everyone in the crew to split evenly? So around 15 bucks each? This way we all lose 15 bucks, but in the end we'll be GAINING money on it? I just have to make sure that we can all sell the 100 copies, which I don't think should be very hard.

Thanks a lot for your time guys.
 
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Look man, I don't want to knock your racket - but it seems like a pipe dream to me.

Which parts...all of it. For the life of me I can't figure out the purpose for selling the DVDs, considering the low yield. If it's not for festivals what's the point?

Just ask yourself seriously what is the point of shooting the short. If the answer is to make money - re-evaluate.
 
If you do make money, take total sales, subtract hard costs of DVD, labels, cases, split the rest 50% for you and rest evenly amongst the others.

Good luck.
 
I am making the film because I like to make films? I want to get better. Then I thought, Hm, I might as well make some copies and sell them. What's wrong with that?

Thanks.
 
They're not being rude, they're giving you honest advice. Usually on a short, that doesn't cost you much to make and there isn't a huge profit expected, have the people work for free. Throw them a couple beers or something, but don't tell them they'll get paid eventually.

I definitely wouldn't want to be told that there's a POSSIBILITY that I'll be making $50. Its kind of insulting when you think about it. If you want to give them an honorarium, give it to them upfront but don't consider it pay.

If you do sell copies and make a profit, take the cash and invest it into your next short so that it can have more production value and so on. The people you're working with are already willing to work for free - take advantage of that now, you won't have that forever.

-Kegan
 
I think you will suprise yourself... there probably wont be any profits. Just watch your expenditures
 
Well, I'm still debating wether or not to spend the money and get them nicely done, and sell them, or to not sell it, and just keep it online.

Maybe I should wait till I make a short like Broken?
 
Robbie Comeau said:
Well, I'm still debating wether or not to spend the money and get them nicely done, and sell them, or to not sell it, and just keep it online.

Maybe I should wait till I make a short like Broken?
Click to expand...

While I think we can all appreciate your enthusiasm, there are lots and lots of layers that are probably not occurring to you. One obviously as already stated are the hard costs of the dvd manufacturing. But next is the labor to sell the dvds. At minimum wage you'd probably have to sell 2 per hour just cover the salesperson (your) salary. Then you have sales tax, and then if you're profiting and paying out- you have to account for taxes for your employees, and then it just starts becoming a fun mess. Best to settle on a set salary for all the help, rather than a percentage share as you originally proposed. You could end up getting famous, having it make some real money in the future and then have to deal with lawsuits in the future from your bit actor.

It's quite a mess and takes a lot more than some hustle at a fair or a street corner.
 
Pay the people who work on your short, even if it's just a tiny sum. Don't promise them "deferred" pay and don't ask them to do it for free unless they're really good friends. If you're asking them to bring something that they own, camera, computer, microphones, makeup, anything else, pay them. People spend a lot of money for the stuff that's needed to make films, and they should be paid.

Don't expect to make any money. You're not. You're just going to lose money like crazy. That's how short films are. You make them either because you love making short films (which is like enjoying working on your car - you can put in all the best equipment but you'll never get money out of it), or you make them to show people that you can handle making a feature, in which case you'll be doing some serious fundraising.

I'm looking to raise about 20 large to make a short film where every body is getting paid, and I'm going to be putting in a lot of money and not get paid ANYTHING. I'm going to lose a lot. But it will be great for exposure and moving in to features. That's the point.

In other words, you are not going to make money on this. Period. And pay your staff, out of pocket if you must, but pay them. Sorry man, this is an expensive business.
 
How am I losing money? Im not. If i sold all 500 copies, THEN I'd pay them there money. I be making 130 dollars (giving the 20 towards DVDs)
 
alright dude well obviously you know way more than people who have been doing this professionally for years.
 
The marketablility will be dependant on the quality of your production and your skill as a promotor. Take a look at the site used to promote Sam Balcomb and Jesse Soff's movie "The Ore" at "theore.com". It was a twenty minute short, marketed via their website. They included an additional two hours on how they made the whole thing on the DVD plus did podcasts during its production and made them a very very nice healthy chunk of change to the point where they could pay their actors.

By the time they were ready to release their DVD the buzz they created online and the trailers and images looked so cool that thousands were lined up willing to reach for their wallet. Pick up a copy and see where the benchmark is for guys making movies from their living rooms.

"If you can dream it, you can do it!" - Walt Disney
 
Robbie I think you need to worry about covering your expenditures first. Who's paying for food? Who's paying for equipment, who's paying for locations, the list goes on and on. Pay your actors or not however you like, but I can almost guarantee you that the first several hundred dollars you make will have already been spent making the movie. Just to put things in perspective I'm embarking on a short documentary this year thats just about my family and its costing upwards of 10 grand to produce. Needless to say since its about my own family I'm not looking to sell it at all, its just something I want to do. If you're in it to make money get out now. If you're in it to throw all of your money time and effort at something you love to do then you're good to go.
 
Robbie, for a 6-8 minutes film, you're really going to have to raise the bar in term of content and production values, which meant spending a ton more than your expected profit margin. No one (except maybe family members) are going to want to shell out money for something that short. I know I wouldn't unless there is a ton of useful BTS. That's why Broken and The Ore make money: high production values and extensive BTS features. And those guys have to spend thousands and months, if not years, to produce something like that.

You asked how you can lose money. Well, where is the budget coming from? Are you financing it yourself? Donations from families and cast? There's no way you can come up with a product that people will want to pay money for on zero budget. Not knocking your abilities, it's just the truth. On my last short film, my actors worked for free, but I still spent close to $700 on a sound person and a music composer; and every cent of that was a necessary expense. For such a razor thin profit margin (assuming you sell all 100 DVDs, which is highly doubtful) this is definitely not a good idea.
 
I wouldn't suggest trying to sell DVD's for a 6min short but you might consider doing something like indieflix.com who will take care of manufacturing and shipping for a 70/30 payment.

I would recommend taking any profits from that (dont expect too much) and just putting it into your next production.
 
Well, where is the budget coming from?
Click to expand...

And to you even have a budget. Have you worked out meal costs, props and set dressing, expendables, tape etc. If you don't sit down and work out a budget ahead of time, you'll find yourself spending more at the last minute than you expected.

You really need to know how much money you have and what you need to spend before you start. And that, "what you need to spend" includes your distribution if you plan on making DVDs to sell.
 
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I like Mr Wrong's assesment.

I did a short about two years ago, 35mm film. It cost me $35K. I paid everyone - not one deferral. It did not make it into any fests. I was too new, I thought it was the cat's ass.

My point is, I'd have trouble charging $5 per for my short - why whuld I pay $5 for yours!!!

If it was some festival winner / crowd favorite / internet phenom then maybe. But it has to be great.

Make the flick 'cause you like flicks. Pay people. Market it yourself if you want, just don't created this filmmaking ponzi scheme.
 
Hi Robbie,

Great thread with many good points on both sides. Certainly those with business acumen are making valid points (macro viewpoint). On the other hand (and in the micro), there's nothing wrong with enjoying incentive royalty sharing arrangements with your partners. Even if (when) you discover you're losing money with the sale of each DVD, as a producer it's a very valuable lesson to discover your true business model (assuming you don't get too far upside-down). Others are giving you a heads-up - those of us who have careers doing business modeling and strategic planning could go on and on, but others have already illustrated the seduction of admiring the tip of the iceberg. At some point, you may wish the get a primer like "The Everything Filmmaking Book" to get a grasp on the financials and business arrangements.

Bottom line - don't let us beat down your inspiration yet be prepared to entire the cold cruel biz world when you're ready for prime time.

Good luck, Michael
 
ahh the smell of blind optimism....

Like it has been stated, you can't expect to make money off of a short...that is what the corporate work is for. You can't just be like one of those craigslist a__holes and promise "food and credit."

p.s. If you ask for help and someone takes their valuable time to try and assist you, at least have the common courtesy to show some appreciation.
 
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