Setting up a Home 5.1 mixing system on Mac suggestions please.

Clint Nitkiewiz Hernandez

Clint Nitkiewiz Hernandez

Well-known member
Okay, I have protools, a midi, keyboard, and mbox.

And I wish to setup a system for mixing 5.1 and adding 5.1 effects, etc, though currently only have my basic $9 speaker system I got from Best Buy years ago which includes a 30watt x 2 plus a subwoofer the size of my hand. I have these conected through the headphone port on my mac tower.

How can I ensure the best lossless conections to hear 5.1 and work with it through my sistem on a Mac?

For the card;
USB 5.1 sound card external
or
5.1 sound card internal

For the speakers;
Home theatre 5.1 speakers with subwoofer
or
Computer 5.1 speakers with subwoofer

Also what may be some recommended watts for mixing 5.1, and audio levels to work at, obvisously not full blasts because the audiences playback systems may differ correct. Assusming I am going theatrical and to dvd, what is a good volume and watts to work at when playing back, or do I just ensure the levels are not peaking or too low. Between 0-12?

Thanks.
 
OK first I will give my very abbreviated RANT (you can find more full versions in other threads). Unless your doing games you have no reason to "mix" in 5.1 on a home system. 5.1 is more complicated than stereo and you have obviously not seriously mixed anything before or you wouldn't have asked some of the above questions.

OK to answer some of the questions.
You can't do 5.1 with an Mbox even if you wanted to, it doesn't have enough outs. Also you can't really work in 5.1 with PT Le (you can sort of in a wanky way).

You can't either 5.1 card with Protools. If you had M-Powered Le (you don't if you have an MBox) you could use some m-Audio boxes.

None of those speakers come close to what you should be using for mixing. Look at Blue Sky speakers, about the only affordable decent quality speakers to mix with.

You have protools go to the Digi User Conference and go to the section on surround and post. There is a sticky on room calibration and mixing levels. The short story is you need filtered pink noise and a dB meter to set up the room.
Your not going theatrical because you CAN'T mix theatrical surround at home. You need to mix Dolby in a Dolby certified stage. If you can settle for 4.0 you could use an SRS box to mix at home but you would still need to have it Dolby SR encoded somewhere.

between 0-12? Films are mixed by ear in calibrated mix stages. There are sort of no rules except that you would be deaf if you played full out in a calibrated stage for any length of time. Optical tracks do have limits but you need to get the specs from the place doing the optical negative.

DVD's are a grey area. You can encode Dolby Digital (for DVD's) at home but I haven't gotten a clear answer from Dolby as to what you can to with the DVD. I think that as long as you don't say anywhere that it's DD you don't have to buy any other licenses but???
 
Wanky technique.

Wanky technique.

Wow thanks for the very detailed response. Those sky speakers are pretty nice, and I did not even know about that forum its great!

So,
"You can't do 5.1 with an Mbox even if you wanted to, it doesn't have enough outs. Also you can't really work in 5.1 with PT Le (you can sort of in a wanky way)."


Why would I need to output in 5.1 via hardware?

I actually have no clue about mixing what so ever. Though I know it is complicated.
But I do know most mixing takes place in large facilities, where one guy does effects, another music, another adr, etc, I dont need a complicated system like that.

I only desire to work on my own films, where I will have the m/e music and dialogue on the same Mac tower system. Being said, I want to create my own approach to mixing, perhaps this is the wanky way you mentioned.

1 - l - Music / Effects /
2 - c - Dialogue only
3 - R - Music / Effects /
4 - LS - Some Effecst and Dialogue when needed
5 - RS - Some Effecst and Dialogue when needed
6 - LFE - Bass Mix Effects only

So bring in all my elements into the protools I have. For explosions, things for tracks 4 and 5, throw in some effects from the 1,2 channels, etc, just do it like that, and not even enter the mixing module. Then export as 6 files, one for each track, then assign them in Apack, and I got an .ac3. I dont wish to own my own d88 machine, just take the 6 different files or the .ac3 then they can create the tape correct?

This may be amateurish, but will it even work? Is the hardware outputting even necessary at all?

Yay or nay? Any advice would be appreciated greatly.

Thanks! Happy new years.
 
Clint Nitkiewiz Hernandez said:
Why would I need to output in 5.1 via hardware?

...
1 - l - Music / Effects /
2 - c - Dialogue only
3 - R - Music / Effects /
4 - LS - Some Effecst and Dialogue when needed
5 - RS - Some Effecst and Dialogue when needed
6 - LFE - Bass Mix Effects only

So bring in all my elements into the protools I have. For explosions, things for tracks 4 and 5, throw in some effects from the 1,2 channels, etc, just do it like that, and not even enter the mixing module. Then export as 6 files, one for each track, then assign them in Apack, and I got an .ac3. I dont wish to own my own d88 machine, just take the 6 different files or the .ac3 then they can create the tape correct?

...
Click to expand...

How are you going to tell what your mix sounds like unless you can play all the swource files and monitor it as you mix, long before you render it to AC3?

The normal channel assignments, BTW, are ...
1. L
2. R
3. C
4. LFE
5. LS
6. RS
 
just try to do a decent stereo mix.

That is hard enough. You simply cannot do a decent 5.1 mix at home w/o spending way way more money than you would want to.
 
Clarification.

Clarification.

Okay I see what everyone is saying. So, this is much clearer now.

I would not use a sound card to playback my audio.

The mbox2 pro would be my sound card essentially, that I plug my 5.1 speakers straight to it to the 6 outputs on the mbox 2?

Now would I need the mbox 2 pro, or just the mbox 2?

Iam new to the pro audio world so with this being said, conventional usb external sound cards or internal ones would not be used now that I will be using protools and the mbox?

Thanks.
 
If this is your first time mixing a project, then I STRONGLY recommend you just get a good pair of speakers and mix stereo. Do a little fading L/R depending on where your dialog is coming from on the screen, layer in some room tone to cover the cuts and balance everything out and call it a day.

And, don't even think of going that far if you can't answer this question:

What is a two-pop?

:-)

Phil
 
Let's try this again. The M Box DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH OUTPUTS. None of them do. The 003 is the lowest system that has enough outputs.

It has been pointed out that I am incorrect in this the M-Box Pro has four balanced outs and an unbalanced stereo out. So you would physically have enough outs with a M-Box Pro.

BUT Le does not suport multi channel anything so you can't pan or place in the surround field etc. There are some wanky ways around this that EXPERIENCED users can get by with. Try cutting some sounds first. I know this sounds radical but just cut some sounds to picture and learn a bit about PT and mixing, then look into surround, maybe.

Take the whole "sound card" thing and toss it out. ProTools ONLY works with it's own hardware.

And your understanding of audio post is a bit off. A big budget feature will often have more people than that and a low budget feature may have one person doing everything. One person can do a great job if the Know what they are doing. Even some larger films have had very small crews.

Clint Nitkiewiz Hernandez said:
Okay I see what everyone is saying. So, this is much clearer now.

I would not use a sound card to playback my audio.

The mbox2 pro would be my sound card essentially, that I plug my 5.1 speakers straight to it to the 6 outputs on the mbox 2?

Now would I need the mbox 2 pro, or just the mbox 2?

Iam new to the pro audio world so with this being said, conventional usb external sound cards or internal ones would not be used now that I will be using protools and the mbox?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
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Second question
What is 12+00?
Or
What does LFOA mean (if you figure this out it's a big hint for #1)

And the big bonus Where should the 2 pop be? (extra bonus if you know this in F+F)
 
Just for the record, Noiz - thge MBox 2 Pro has six outs, so COULD potentially be used for surround output.

But Clint, listen to Noiz and everyone else about everything else. ProTools LE doesn't handle surround natively, and the workarounds are not something for the inexperienced. Surround mixing is not for the inexperienced, and in general not for the home studio. Go with stereo first.
 
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If not protools then what?

If not protools then what?

Okay guys, if not protools le to mix in, then what?

Is digital performer made more for this task?

Is protools made more for the composer, or musician than do it all yourself film guy and composer like myself?

I simply wish to open up a program, any one, set effects in in the 6 channels based on what i hear through the mbox or whatever other 003 hardware and sky speakers, and say, okay, I want the explosion to come from the rear left then fade to the rear right quickly, and I want the dialogue to only come from the center, and I want to add extra bass in the lfe, and so on.

I can do this in apple soundtrack in a way, export the 6 channels, and assign them in Apack, though I dont wish to use this consumer product it does not allow me to monitor the 5.1 correctly, and therefore I turn to my protools, but if it is Digital Performer, or another software I am unaware of, then great, let me have it. Cubase perhaps? Something I can definitley use for all my upcoming feature length films, obviously protools le and the plugin that supports 5.1 mixing is not enough. Is there another version of protools I dont know of that nativley supports 5.1?

here is the 5.1 plugin for protools le by the way, $180, too good to be true?
http://neyrinck.com/Pages/mix51.html

Thanks a bunch.
 
OK I will respond then bow out because this whole thread is actually very insulting. You cant just decide to mix and do a decent job. Even on low end projects the folks doing decent work are VERY experienced. THey have payed there dues. You don't seem to get this. So stay in the FCP suite and use STP it "does" surround and you can use what ever sound card the system has a driver for. If you want to imagine that this is anyway close to the way it is done in the real world than fine. A bunch of folks have told you not to go down this road and you just don't heat. Go forth and prosper, just dont come back hear whining that "I did my 5.1 feature and nobody bought it and now Dolby is suing me and why doesn't my film sound like (name some Hollywood extravaganza)? If you don't listen don't expect help.
 
Well, if you want to go ahead anyway after the many warnings:

ProTools HD systems handle surround mixing - but start at around $10,000.

The plug-in you mention looks interesting... you can try it.

Digital Performer has comprehensive surround support, I'd recommend that and a piece of MOTU hardware as a better entry-level surround approach than trying to make PTLE do what you want.

If I were you, I'd find a friendly experienced mixer in your area with a good surround setup, and ask to observe a few sessions. Watch what goes on and try to get a good grasp of the process and what equipment and skills are important to it. After THAT, perhaps, you can start making good decisions about what you need to buy.

Now maybe I'll go find Noiz for a cappuccino?
 
Clint,

I really dislike threads where a person asks a question like "How can I do X" and then everyone jumps in with "why would you want to do X" but unfortunately this is one of those situations where it is warranted. You seem to be quite committed to the idea of mixing something 5.1 but you appear to have little or no experience mixing anything. To be frank, if you have no experience mixing and no analog console experience you may find you have your hands full with the basic concepts of constructing a mixer in protools. Learning to use automation, compression and eq are going to have far far greater impacts on the quality of your mix than your choice of stereo or 5.1

You asked a question, and you have received answers from experienced individuals. You should consider their responses.

You cannot realistically mix 5.1 without having 6 discrete outputs and software that allows 5.1 mixing. You don't really have either. Mixing also requires a great deal of practice and skill, and mixing in 5.1 only multiplies the complexity of the project.
 
Sorry man, but they are right. You are biteing off more than you can chew. You are going to end up just wasting money. Get a good, solid entry level stereo setup and you will be better off. Why not get a $1000 set of monitors from Dynaudio, Genelec, Adam or JBL, some kind of interface with protools le OR PROTOOLS M-Powered and room setup and treatment. Do a great stereo mix then take the project files down to a pro post house and have them break it out to 5.1 if you want later. You still need a solid mix foundation to get the 5.1 mix done.

Also get Jay Rose's books
http://www.dplay.com/book/index.html (please use the links on his site see exp there)
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Id love to chat some more but I am off on my journey now to mix 5.1 in my custom built studio once the film is shot. Hope you all come to see it, and yes, in 5.1, not stereo, sorry. I paid my dues indeed, research was a real ***** but well worth it. Was it so hard for anyone to mention the word Waves? Ciao.

Oh, and I found the dusty unopened STP in the box a few days ago, and will be sending it to Noiz2 for christmas next year, if he's good that is.

Just Kidding Noiz2, your feedback on the sky speakers, digi forum, and comment of
"you can sort of in a wanky way" were priceless and kept me moving forward.

I didn't mean to offend anyone by asking to do the impossible, it's just I dont take impossible as an answer, never. This is how I got going in the film world, having people try to tell me no, no no, and I kept saying yes yes yes, and it worked, as it had worked here as well.

But enough talking for me, I got lots of work and art to do.

Once again thanks, sorry if the newbie questions offended some, and perhaps next time I will return to offer a .ac3 to download of my effort of the impossible.

Ciaoo.
 
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