Editing A 150 Min Film On Vegas

[Deuceofspades]

My next VITAL question David, is frame rate and compression etc....

if I am making a full feature film, and if I want to make it with a "possible" theatrical release in mind (knowing that it is only a remote possibility but wanting to be as "theatrical release friendly" in my format as possible).

Then,

1. what format should I film in (I assume HVX-200 720/24p native)

2. once I am done editing the film (vegas will set the project up automatically for 24fps, correct?) what will my next step be in terms of rendering the finished project? Which rendering option shoudl I select?

3. If making internet trailers along the way, to promote the film on internet, what should I render them as (what file format and what frame rate?).

4. IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE I NEED TO SET-UP IN VEGAS FROM THE GET GO when planning to create a "theatrical release friendly" film. I want to make sure I start on the right foot from minute ONE.

5. Finally, let's say I finished my film in Vegas and now also want to release it on DVD, is the rendering procedure then different? If so how?

6. OR let's say a car related TV channel takes liking to my hotrod film and wants to air it - What changes will I need to make to my Vegas project / rendering etc... to give them something they can use?

Sorry I know this is a lot of questions, but I think they would help many filmmakers trying to work with Vegas on their full feature projects. We need a "plan of attack" or road map, if you will.

Thanks David WE LOVE YOU!

 

[ReneH]

Deuce,

Don't foregt to give http://izotope.com/products/audio/rx/ a try. I have not found a better piece of audio software better than RX for fixing audio related problems.

Also, I am currently shooting footage for a documentary and like Dave, I have been using winexplorer to help me arrange my clips. It really isn't a mystery here, just arrange your veggies, and name them, so that you will be able to retrieve them as you need them. Sometimes I pre-render a clip separate from the others because they contain too many effects or too many "child's" to avoid confusion.

As for the Macites and their FCP, I think it is a matter of brainwashing and cultish behavior. I find anything Apple does as too cultish and clickish, things that don't have anything to do with real computing. Furthermore, get version 8a, it's already out and it is rock solid stable.

Lastly, Vegas is a piece of software that doesn't rely on plugins. It is a paint program, an NLE, and audio package, all rolled into one. If you are creative, Vegas can do it in most instances without relying on too many plugins to do your effects. If you need it, try Particle Illusion, its the one piece of software that I use very frequently. Good luck!

 

[jason robinson]

some possibly correct answers

some possibly correct answers

2. once I am done editing the film (vegas will set the project up automatically for 24fps, correct?)

Just go to the "File" menu and select "Properties" and then choose your frame rate, pixel aspect ratio, etc etc. This doesn't mean you cannot use some other type of media in your project (Vegas deals with that just fine).

what will my next step be in terms of rendering the finished project? Which rendering option shoudl I select? ....... and now also want to release it on DVD, is the rendering procedure then different? If so how?

For archiving you should probably render full AVI so you can print to tape (I haven't used that feature yet). For DVD release , select Main Concept MPEG2 and use the DVD Architect presets (modify as needed) to fit your distribution method. Since you are filming in HD you should know that DVDA cannot burn to HD-DVD / Blu-Ray (yet). You can (with Vegas Pro 8) render to Blu-Ray and then burn in a different app.

Be sure to check your bit rate so that it is not to low (gives you longer playtime per disc but sacrifices quality) / or high (some players cannot play over a 9,000Kbps) for the capacity of the disc you are burning to (single layer / dual layer).

Also, for best results using the Variable BitRate encoding (the default for DVDA presets) select the "Custom" button and then make sure the quality is set to "Best" and then under the video tab select the check box for two-pass render. This greatly extends the render time but helps the VBR to "plan ahead" for scenes with lots of motion.

3. If making internet trailers along the way, to promote the film on internet, what should I render them as (what file format and what frame rate?).

It seems that Flash is king for internet trailer delivery (at least for 320x240 size). The other best bet is Quicktime. You might want to check out Douglas Spotted Eagle's instructional video for "Video for the Internet" on the vasst.com site, though only the last few chapters would be applicable because they cover encoders specific to web delivery.

The short of it is to choose Quicktime and go full resolution but short to get the best looking web video. (Don't forget the apply the broadcast filter to the tracks of your timelines for delivery to broadcast / DVD but remove or turn off those filters for delivery to computers/internet).

6. OR let's say a car related TV channel takes liking to my hotrod film and wants to air it - What changes will I need to make to my Vegas project / rendering etc... to give them something they can use?

Probably a lot of changes. If it gets that far, you can expect to need to re edit a few scenes so it fits better into commercial windows. You also will have to provide full cue-sheets for all music used in the production as well as proof of clearance for each.

Then expect the broadcast location to want a specific format for delivery, which might not be DVD, and this will vary depending on the station.

 

[Deuceofspades]

Thank you Jason for the detailed post which was very helpful and informative. I do have a few questions:

Just go to the "File" menu and select "Properties" and then choose your frame rate, pixel aspect ratio, etc etc. This doesn't mean you cannot use some other type of media in your project (Vegas deals with that just fine).

From watching David' instructional video it seemed Vegas will automatically set the project frame rate when it captures, or it will know what frame rate you were filming in. So if I am not altering that rate, I thought I would not need to go into the project properties to set frame rate... Please elaborate...

For archiving you should probably render full AVI so you can print to tape (I haven't used that feature yet). For DVD release , select Main Concept MPEG2 and use the DVD Architect presets (modify as needed) to fit your distribution method. Since you are filming in HD you should know that DVDA cannot burn to HD-DVD / Blu-Ray (yet). You can (with Vegas Pro 8) render to Blu-Ray and then burn in a different app.

OK that brings up another question. I am NEW at HDV and know very little if anything at all (sigh). What is Blu- Ray, will I need a special burner? Can you burn HD-DVD at home in your own computer or will it require some new expensive hardware I now have to add to my wishlist? Also what application should I use to burn HD-DVD?

Be sure to check your bit rate so that it is not to low (gives you longer playtime per disc but sacrifices quality) / or high (some players cannot play over a 9,000Kbps) for the capacity of the disc you are burning to (single layer / dual layer).

If my film is 150 min, then what would the max bitrate be for it to fit on a DVD?

Also, for best results using the Variable BitRate encoding (the default for DVDA presets) select the "Custom" button and then make sure the quality is set to "Best" and then under the video tab select the check box for two-pass render. This greatly extends the render time but helps the VBR to "plan ahead" for scenes with lots of motion.

What is a VBR ?

The short of it is to choose Quicktime and go full resolution but short to get the best looking web video. (Don't forget the apply the broadcast filter to the tracks of your timelines for delivery to broadcast / DVD but remove or turn off those filters for delivery to computers/internet).

What are "broadcast flters" ?

Probably a lot of changes. If it gets that far, you can expect to need to re edit a few scenes so it fits better into commercial windows. You also will have to provide full cue-sheets for all music used in the production as well as proof of clearance for each. Then expect the broadcast location to want a specific format for delivery, which might not be DVD, and this will vary depending on the station.

Ah great, more headaches , what are cue sheets and where can I download them? Proof of clearance not a problem, all music 100% original and donated by the artists and their record companies, so I'm good on that end of things for sure.

But what exactly did you mean by "so it fits better into commercial windows" ?

AH... TO BE YOUNG, CAREFREE AND INNOCENT AGAIN...

 

[David Jimerson]

if I am making a full feature film, and if I want to make it with a "possible" theatrical release in mind (knowing that it is only a remote possibility but wanting to be as "theatrical release friendly" in my format as possible).

Then,

1. what format should I film in (I assume HVX-200 720/24p native)

If you're looking for theatrical release, then you're best off shooting 1080/24p, and then only using 720/24pN for slo-mo or other variable frame rate effects.

2. once I am done editing the film (vegas will set the project up automatically for 24fps, correct?)

No. You'll want to choose a project template which best fits your footage. If you shoot primarily 1080, then choose the "HD 1080-24p" template.

what will my next step be in terms of rendering the finished project? Which rendering option shoudl I select?

That depends entirely on what you want to do with it. The answer is different for DVD, for viewing on a computer, for printing to tape, etc..

3. If making internet trailers along the way, to promote the film on internet, what should I render them as (what file format and what frame rate?).

Frame rate should be 23.976; the most popular formats for Web-based trailers are Windows Media and H.264 (which you can render using the MainConcept AVC templates (.MP4)).

4. IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE I NEED TO SET-UP IN VEGAS FROM THE GET GO when planning to create a "theatrical release friendly" film. I want to make sure I start on the right foot from minute ONE.

Make sure you're shooting in the correct format and you've chosen the correct Project template.

5. Finally, let's say I finished my film in Vegas and now also want to release it on DVD, is the rendering procedure then different? If so how?

For DVD, you render as MPEG-2 using a DVD Architect template which best matches your footage, in this case being Widescreen 24p DVD. Render your video this way, then you must render your audio separately as either AC-3 or PCM (uncompressed WAV). Save them under the same file name in the same folder, and DVDA will match them up automatically. If you're not simply rendering the entire project, then be sure to use the same loop region for both.

6. OR let's say a car related TV channel takes liking to my hotrod film and wants to air it - What changes will I need to make to my Vegas project / rendering etc... to give them something they can use?

It depends on their requirements. You won't need to make any changes to your project; it'll just be matter of how your render to give them what they want.

 

[David Jimerson]

From watching David' instructional video it seemed Vegas will automatically set the project frame rate when it captures, or it will know what frame rate you were filming in.

No. What I said was that it doesn't matter what any of your settings are while capturing 24p (DV), because Vegas doesn't remove pulldown while you capture. If you're using DV, in order to edit 24p, you still have to choose a 24p timeline.

So if I am not altering that rate, I thought I would not need to go into the project properties to set frame rate... Please elaborate...

Vegas's default timeline (in the US) is NTSC DV. Any new project will be that unless you change the default, so you'll have to choose a project to fit your footage.

OK that brings up another question. I am NEW at HDV and know very little if anything at all (sigh).

The HVX200 doesn't shoot HDV. HDV is format for HD, based on MPEG-2. The 200 shoots DVCPRO-HD, which is a different format. There are some significant differences between the two. (But don't worry; in every respect except filesize, DVCPRO-HD is better).

What is Blu- Ray, will I need a special burner? Can you burn HD-DVD at home in your own computer or will it require some new expensive hardware I now have to add to my wishlist? Also what application should I use to burn HD-DVD?

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are two competing formats for high definition DVDs. You will need a special burner for either, though I understand people have been getting away with burning footage to standard DVDs and then playing them -- though you don't get a whole lot of footage.

If my film is 150 min, then what would the max bitrate be for it to fit on a DVD?

There are bit rate calculators you can find online.

What is a VBR ?

"Variable Bit Rate." A way of saving space. There can be a lower bitrate in parts of your footage where there's not a lot of motion, because there's not much difference from frame to frame, so less data needs to be stored/used.

What are "broadcast flters" ?

This is making sure your color conforms to NTSC standards. You're not there yet in the process, so don't worry about this just yet.

But what exactly did you mean by "so it fits better into commercial windows" ?

Meaning, you might have to make some trims in order to accommodate commercials.

AH... TO BE YOUNG, CAREFREE AND INNOCENT AGAIN...

That's all about state of mind.

 

[jason robinson]

Thank you David for helping out on that response.

Deuce,

Personally, I would be spending much more time researching your production flow & refining your editing before launching into this big project. For example I have been working with Vegas since 6 (about 2.5 years total I suppose) and I have edited only about 5 60+ minute productions and I only recently (as in this latest production currently underway) decided to get as detailed as bothering with the Broadcast filter.

There are a lot of details that help a production's cinematic value that will not be listed in the Vegas Help files (which are pretty good) and you can only find by reading good forums (like this one or my other stomping grounds DVInfo.net).

So make use of the search function on both this forum and DVInfo.net, and you will find almost all your questions already answered by people far more knowledgeable than I.

Another thing to consider is the VASST Training DVD series specifically for Vegas, which I just purchased last week so I can finally learn how to correctly work with color curves & color Correction. If you haven't already, consider the $150 upgrade given to you by Sony in the upgrade announcement email. Great deal. I took it last week and it is nice to have some of the features since 7 (like auto snapping to events & multi-cam).

 

[jason robinson]

Cue Sheets

Cue Sheets

Regarding Cue-sheets, even if you personally compose & perform the music, any broadcaster will want a cue sheet. Cue-sheets are a list down to the second of every piece of music used in a production. Sometimes even if a character is listening to a radio playing, that song must have clearance obtained from the copyright holder and it must be listed in the cue-sheet. There are lots of sample cue-sheets available online but they basically are a big spreadsheet with the following columns, "start time" " end time" "title" "composer" "performer" etc etc.

From the devil them self (ASCAP), here is a page with lots of that info:
http://www.ascap.com/playback/2005/winter/cuesheets.html

 

[Deuceofspades]

Regarding Cue-sheets, even if you personally compose & perform the music, any broadcaster will want a cue sheet. Cue-sheets are a list down to the second of every piece of music used in a production. Sometimes even if a character is listening to a radio playing, that song must have clearance obtained from the copyright holder and it must be listed in the cue-sheet. There are lots of sample cue-sheets available online but they basically are a big spreadsheet with the following columns, "start time" " end time" "title" "composer" "performer" etc etc.

From the devil them self (ASCAP), here is a page with lots of that info:
http://www.ascap.com/playback/2005/winter/cuesheets.html

Thanks jason, I downloaded the cue sheet exemple and printed out the article (good bed time reading LOL) Ironically i am ASCAP member myself and getting a few checks here and there for a song of mine that was placed on a B movie 10 years ago... Still gets aired on Tv now and then...

 

[Deuceofspades]

Thank you David for helping out on that response.

If you haven't already, consider the $150 upgrade given to you by Sony in the upgrade announcement email. Great deal. I took it last week and it is nice to have some of the features since 7 (like auto snapping to events & multi-cam).

Funny , just as I was reading these lnes, the UPS man delivered the vegas 8.0 upgrade on my desk. i was one step ahead of you on that one hehehehe :thumbsup:

 

[Deuceofspades]

Meaning, you might have to make some trims in order to accommodate commercials.

That's all about state of mind.

Does each TV station have it's own timing for commercial breaks, or are they all pretty much the same? So If I get this right, you will have to edit the film so that scenes end in time for each commercial breaks, yes?

Also about 16:9 format, I assume most TV channels will want the image trimmed to make it fit in their TV squarish format? Then again, by the time this film is completed, will there still be square formats left? What makes everything challenging right now is the fact we are in the midst of a change in digital world, SD being slowly phased out and HD becoming the new standard as well as I assume 16:9 format soon becoming the new "norm"... Which makes for additional headaches to figure out for the newbie (as if we did't have enough headaches as it is, trying to make a no budget indie film)

 

[David Jimerson]

Each broadcaster will give you its own requirements.

By now, most channels will show 16:9 material in letterbox, so you probably won't have to produce a 4:3 version.

 

[Deuceofspades]

Bumped into the founder of the Digital Cinema Society (which I belong to) yesterday. Asked him about format with P2 camera. His advice for my needs was to go 720-24p and not 1080i - I forgot to ask him whether I should use 24p or 24PN though (rats).

He seems to believe that the 1080i on that camera will not produce a sigificant increase of quality (if any at all), to justify files size increase, and logistic problems that would result from it. Just wanted to share that info with you, whether accurate or not, I do not know, but I do know that he is extremely knowledgeable on everything digital and making MANY full feature films on that format for many years now. So for what it's worth, that was his own opinion.

 

[David Jimerson]

He brings up a reasonable point, though if he said "if any at all," it seems like some unwarranted exaggeration.

There's a definite increase in resolution, and it's an increase you'll want if you do go out to film.

Yes, it takes 2.5 times more space (IF you shoot 24pN and not 24P), so you'll be offloading cards more often. So, as with anything, there are trade-offs.

BTW, even though it says "1080i/24p" in the menu, it's actually 1080p, not 1080i. It's referred to as "1080i" because the 24p is stored in a 1080i stream, just like the DVX does with 480p. But it's 1080p.

 

[plainman007]

David > Maybe an alternate would be to use a firestore like FS100 hard disk system (100gb??) with the hvx instead of swapping out cards often ? that might carry about 60 mins of footage at one go ?

 

[David Jimerson]

100 GB will hold about 110 minutes of 1080. But I'd rather use the cards.

 

[plainman007]

May i ask why ? Im planning to shoot to FS100. So im interested in knowing why you would prefer P2 Cards ?

 

[David Jimerson]

Nothing hanging off the camera; no cables to come unplugged, no chance of hard drive failure, better organization of the media when I offload it manually, all metadata intact . . .

 

[plainman007]

but how does one on a live location (maybe street reality series) go about ofloading cards and then move the video off to what ? cant work with a dozen cards at hand right ? how do pros work in these situations ?

 

[David Jimerson]

You COULD work with a dozen cards at hand.

You're not going to walk to the location, right? You'll have a vehicle. You can keep a laptop in the vehicle, and a USB-powered hard drive.

Look, I'm not saying that certain situations don't highlight certain advantages of the Firestore -- if you had to run continuously for a couple of hours with no possibility of offloading, then sure, use the Firestore -- I'm just saying, I'd rather use the cards unless it's prohibitively impractical.

In a narrative-film scenario, like Deuce is talking about, no question. The cards, hands down.