AKG 414 or Neumann U87 for voice over???

N

Nicholas Natteau

Veteran
I need a top of the line microphone for voice over narration for a documentary.

I'm essentially down to two choices: AKG 414 or Neumann U87.

I know that the AKG is $999 and the Neumann U87 is $3,000 or triple the price.

But when it comes to excellent sound quality, which one should I go with?

BOTTOM LINE: WHICH ONE IS BETTER AND WHY???

Thanks very much in advance,

- Nicholas
 
How did you narrow it down to those 2?

What type of voice-over do you plan to do, on who's voice?

There's no such thing, really, as a "better" mic. Many VO professionals even bring their own favorite mics because they know how to work those mics to get their signature sound. I've never heard of either the U87 or the 414 being anyone's favorite VO mic. The 414, while a great workhorse that will do good in almost any situation, is primarily used as an instrumental mic. The U87 is renowned as a vocal mic - for some singers. Again, it'll work well in many different applications, but I don't see why you would choose it as your only VO mic.

"Radio voice" VO is often done with dynamic mics, and there are many favorites (I'm partial to certain Electro-Voice models, and some of the Heil mics). There are tons of cardioids used as "transparent" VO mics - and these tend to be tailored to the specific voice (e.g., a BLUE baby bottle is great for certain male voices, mediocre for almost anything else).

Before you plunk down thousands of bucks, figure out what you want, who you'll be micing, and try a few mics out. "Which is better" won't really get you anywhere...
 
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Hi Ullanta,

Thanks very much for taking the time to explain all of this to me. The reason I'm asking is because I went to Guitar Center and was told that if I wanted truly great sound, the best on the market were AKG 414 and the U-87 being the pinnacle.

I'm really a novice here. I live in Boston and have tried looking for places that rent a U87 or AKG 414 and found no company that rents them out.

Right now I'm using a Sennheiser MD 421 II. It works well and what I like most about it is that it has a very nice incremental Bass setting.

But I read and heard from numerous sources that the Neumann U87 was the best vocal mic on the market. I believe its the one used on the Howard Stern show, the one Howard Stern speaks into.


QUESTION: I was wondering if the U87 gives off a deep rich sound when it comes to vocals. That's what I'm aiming for. Or is this possible with the mic I already have? Would it be just a question of adding more bass in a program like Soundtrack Pro or Logic Pro?

I will be the one doing the entire voiceover in my documentary.
 
What you're talking about is called "proximity effect", and it's most pronounced with large-diaphragm cardioid mics. The closer you are to the mic, the more bassy the sound gets. Just adding bass is not the same... and again, a good VO artist knows how to "work the mic" - meaning, play with the proximity effect for great results. Watch a good singer or VO readr... you'll see that they are constantly moving the mic (or themselves relative to the mic) for various effects...

I don't generally find Guitar Center folks to be the most knowledgable (though they act like it); don't ever trust anyone who tells you without qualification "this is the best" about almost anything! Again, a "vocal" mic usually doesn't mean a VO mic, they mean singing.

Howard Stern? I don't really watch him... in pictures on the web he seems to use many different mics, but one frequent one seems to be a TLM103, not a U87.

Boston, eh? Maybe you should drop by Berklee, which has a strong recording program, and see if you can get some of the students to let you try out a bunch of mics!
 
Bah! You beat me to it! I was going to say the same thing... it looks like a 103 to me also!

The mic does matter, and yeah... everything else you said is true Ullanta...

It's funny, but I like Howard 50% of the time and I hate him 50% of the time... I got Sirius exclusively for him... and there are only about 3 or 4 channels that I listen to on there, including his channel... but with the lack of restrictions on Sirius I think the show over all is actually WORSE... because they can take what was a distasteful bit... and now fully flesh it out (pun intended)... and what used to be funny was the idea that they were skirting a line where they could get in trouble... and you had this, "I can't believe they're almost doing this!":grin:... and now it's, "I can't believe they're actually doing this...":huh:.

It's the difference between a distasteful joke that you feel guilty laughing at, because it's so funny... and seeing that joke actually happen... and feeling sick because everybody else is laughing and you're standing there thinking the world can be a sh*tty place.

Sorry to get off point there... but anyway... I always feel like I have to qualify my familiarity with Howard Stern...

Anyway... yes, if you have Sirius then you hear the old shows from the 80's and 90's... and you hear how Howard's voice got progressively better and less nasally... The nasally issue was his problem... and he learned how to fix that by speaking from his diaphragm rather then through his head.

But the thing that's giving him the rich, bass character that he didn't used to have is mostly due to using proximity effect... I yell at my radio when a caller asks about the sound of his voice and Howard attributes it to "not caring as much as he used to"... NO! That 'aint it... he finally... FINALLY got up on the mic!

Watch the E! show (an old one) and look where he is on the mic when his voice is deepest... watch a few seconds of the Glenn Beck show on CNN (or wherever it is) and look how close he is to that Blue mic... if you want to sound like a VO artist then you should be almost kissing the pop-screen.

Last point about Howard... I'd be surprised if there's not a +2 or 3db rise on a bass EQ coming from his mic... probably a gentle bump around 100hz.
 
Dear Ullanta and Mattin, thank you both very much for hte feedback.

I had one other quesiton pertaining to voice over recording. I am currently using Soundtrack Pro. Is this the best software for doing voice over recording? I noticed that my PowerMac G5 frequently spins fast when I use this program creating unwanted machine noise in the background. Is there another program you recommend?

Again, I'm a novice at this. But the way I have everything set up is: I have my Sennheiser mic connected to the PowerMac G5 via an M-Audio Firewire 410 device. I open Soundtrack Pro and create an audio file and record straight into the program. Am I doing anything wrong, or is there a better way?

Thanks very much for your continued help.

- Nicholas
 
Nicholas Natteau said:
the way I have everything set up is: I have my Sennheiser mic connected to the PowerMac G5 via an M-Audio Firewire 410 device. I open Soundtrack Pro and create an audio file and record straight into the program. Am I doing anything wrong, or is there a better way?
- Nicholas
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I should preface all this by saying that I'm a veteran audio engineer/mixer. I have dozens of mics in my studio including pairs of both U87s and 414s. For more background, have a look at my site:

www.tedspencerrecording.com

OK...cred brag mode: off

The main thing affecting your use of Sountrack Pro sonically is the interface, and the M-Audio box should be acceptable for your purposes. I've had only a little experience with them, but like most affordable interfaces by reputable companies these days, it's probably pretty good, especially considering its price. Soundtrack Pro will just be managing the audio for you, and should do fine.

What you might have in terms of audio software plug-ins is also an important factor. The stock (Apple) ones might be acceptable, but only barely. Judiciously applying some compression and EQ to the soundfile will generally help a great deal, especially if you don't use a compressor on the way in. You didn't mention a hardware compressor so I assume you don't have one. It might be a good idea to include one in your budget, ideally one that also has a decent mic preamp built in.

As to mics, as others have said, there's no "best" mic, period. A given voice may sound best on anything from a $10K Telefunken to a $100 Shure. In general though, quality voice mics are worth the money. As someone else suggested, trying some out on your own voice might be the best way to get a sense of it.

The U87 takes a lot of flack these days, but I still like it very much, and find it perhaps the single most versatile high-quality mic in my 30+ mic collection. It's useful on many, many things, including lots of instruments, which may of course not be relevant in your case. It's expensive, but can be readily had used for about $1800 in good condition, which is the way I'd recommend buying one. Just be careful, since they're delicate things. A reputable used gear dealer can be very helpful here. Try the back pages of Mix magazine for some sources.

A good 414 can sound surprisingly close to an 87 on many things, including male voices. I think it's another good choice. Others might be:

Neumann TLM 103
Audio Technica 4033
M-Audio Sputnik

Regarding the Sputnik, I've not yet tried one, but reliable people tell me it it's a giant killer, and it's only about $450 (check eBay for retailers). I'm very strongly tempted to buy one in spite of my already oversized mic collection.

The Universal Audio LA-610 might be a good preamp/compressor choice at about $1500:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LA610/

And a modect collection of quality plug-ins for Soundtrack Pro/FCP might also be a good investment. Like the URS Audio Units Vintage compressor/equalizer bundle for $750:

http://www.ursplugins.com/

So here's what I'd buy if I were you, given that $3K for a U87 wasn't a deal-breaker:

M-Audio Sputnik: $450
Universal Audio LA-610: $1500
URS compressor/equalizer bundle: $750

Total: $2700

You'd have a very fine signal chain in that, and it would give you lots of options for shaping the sound. It'll take some knowledge to get the best out of it, particularly where mic placement, compression and equalization are concerned. You might consider spending the remaining $300 of your $3K on hiring someone to give you some instruction.

Also, $40 (or less) will get you a copy of "Modern Recording Techniques", a great book on the overall subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Record...4960852?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192808236&sr=8-2

With this gear and some training you should be able to make great sounding VO tracks. Best of luck to you!
 
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MattinSTL said:
But the thing that's giving him the rich, bass character that he didn't used to have is mostly due to using proximity effect... I yell at my radio when a caller asks about the sound of his voice and Howard attributes it to "not caring as much as he used to"... NO! That 'aint it... he finally... FINALLY got up on the mic!
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OK... wqhen I was a young impressionable tweenager I hitched rides to school (a 1-hour trip) with a guy who listened to How-weird on the way home.

A common activity on the show was, Howard would ask a woman to sit on her radio or speakers, sans lingerie, and he would vocalize low-frequency tones and have her report on whether it was stimulating.

At that point in time, Howard was definitely familiar with the proximity effect!


Oh, yeah, about mics - Ted has some great advice... but be leery again of buying a mic (or processor) without trying and comparing it, and especially on the advice of someone who's never tried it! Takes Ted's advice to mean :make sure to try this" rather than "go out and buy this".

You're lucky in that you have one voice to consider, and can get a mic that works best for you, rather than having to worry about generality!
 
ullanta said:
Ted has some great advice... but be leery again of buying a mic (or processor) without trying and comparing it, and especially on the advice of someone who's never tried it! Takes Ted's advice to mean :make sure to try this" rather than "go out and buy this".
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In general you're absolutely right about "try it before you buy it", and it's something I always adhere to in my own pro-audio purchases (and boy, have I made a lot of those!). But as I wrote the post, I began to think the pieces I zeroed in on would almost certainly yield excellent results, and would represent great value for the money.

Yes I haven't personally used the Sputnik yet, but again, enough knowledgeable friends and other experts have, and simply RAVED about it, that it seemed like a pretty solid recommendation. In case you aren't familiar with it, it's a 3 micron large-diaphragm tube condenser that's been compared favorably in the Pro Audio press to some of the most expensive mics made, past and present, *irrespective of cost*. Heady stuff, that. I'll probably get one myself soon, and I'll be pretty darned shocked if I don't like it.

Regarding the other stuff, again, as I wrote the post the idea seemed to emerge for me that having a high quality signal chain including good plug-ins was going to largely trump the mic choice itself, especially with the Sputnik's huge price advantage. And it may be quite difficult for Nicholas to make that assessment successfully without the ear training experience, access to a known, good monitoring environment etc. Comparing mics or preamps is not exactly like picking colors on a car. It takes a fair bit of knowledge just to interpret what you hear.

The UA LA-610 is a very fine piece, as are the URS plugins. An alternative to the LA-610 might be an Avalon VT737sp (I have two and they're lovely), but it's about $700 more. So in spite of going against the inauguably sound "hear it first" axiom, I'm sticking my neck out and recommending that he just go and get those pieces. With proper training, I'm betting he'll do more than fine with them.
 
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Hi Nick, a few notes....and I do work in the audio recording business...:

There are many different microphones out there as well as there are many different voices out there. You say that you're essentially satisfied with how the microphone you already own sounds. Stick with it. Do not buy things, like microphones you can't test on your voice, compressors you don't know how to set up, microphones suggested by folks who haven't even tried them out personally....(?) and so forth.

Your setup is fine, the Sennheiser MD 421 is perfectly useable, the rest is up to you: working the microphone, that is, finding the sweet spot for your voice, play with the distance, the mic placement, try talking directly into the mike vs. slightly to the side, etc. Do not buy books that have the tendency to over-complicate things...and do not ask for guidance at a GC store. These people have no clue, but they do want to sell you something for sure.

good luck, keenast
 
keenast said:
Your setup is fine, the Sennheiser MD 421 is perfectly useable
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The 421 (I have two, and have been using them regularly for decades) is basically a PA mic, although it also works very well on drums and electric guitars. It has a rising HF shelf, similar to a Shure SM58, but tends to sound considerably brighter. Its greatest strength is in its ability to handle high SPL levels, which is why it excels on the above instruments. The "incremental bass setting" that Nicholas described is a three step high pass filter (bass cut) that is designed to offsest proximity effect in PA situations. In a VO setting they should never be needed unless the talent is practically eating the mic. It's a bit of a red flag that Nicholas likes the effect, actually.

He stipulated that he wants a better mic, and certainly one can do much better than a 421 for a documentary film VO. I've put 421s, RE20s (one of the most popular radio mics), SM58s and so on up against higher end mics in countless studio "shoot outs", and the higher end mics have won every time. Different ones for different voices to be sure (none of us diagrees on that factor), but the "finer" mics have always won. Every time.

Do not buy things, like microphones you can't test on your voice, compressors you don't know how to set up, microphones suggested by folks who haven't even tried them out personally....(?) and so forth.
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So I have to defend this again? Look, pardon the second cred-flash here, but I have multiple gold/platinum records, multiple grammies, multiple oscar nominations, hundreds of album credits, dozens of feature film credits, multiple decades in the recording business and thousands of sessions engineered in the biggest studios in NYC. I own over 30 microphones, including some of the world's finest: a Telefunken U47, Neumann U87s and KM84s, A Sanken CU41, AKG 414s, a Lawson LMP-47, an AT 4050 and so on...get the picture?

I have VERY good reason to recommend what is from *very* reliable sources a groundbreaking mic that...yes...I've never heard (except in audio clips I downloaded, which count, but only a little)...to a beginner who will have a hard time making an informed choice anyway. I would never break the "listen to it first" rule as I am in this case if I didn't. Consider also that virtually every single radio station in America, including the major market ones, use Electro-Voice RE20s for *everything* - every announcer, every guest - everyone - and they sound pretty much ok. Sure it's ideal to choose the best mic for each person, but rules can be successfully broken.

Quality compression and equalization are also very important parts of delivering a good sound, and using them is not rocket science. I recommended Nick spend a few hundred of his budget on training, which should get him well underway in their proper use.

the rest is up to you: working the microphone, that is, finding the sweet spot for your voice, play with the distance, the mic placement, try talking directly into the mike vs. slightly to the side, etc.
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All good advice for the use of any mic in any situation.

Do not buy books that have the tendency to over-complicate things
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What? That's like saying "don't learn to spell - talking is all you'll ever need". "Modern Recording Techniques" (have you read it? Or any other audio engineering book?) is a classic, and very much so for its *under* complication of things. It's exceptionally clearly written, and contains a wealth of useful information for beginners and more experienced types alike. Recommending *against* educating oneself has to be one of the most preposterous things I've ever read on this or any other discussion group.

...and do not ask for guidance at a GC store. These people have no clue, but they do want to sell you something for sure.
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Hard to argue that, though some GC employees do try the best they can to do well. They just don't ever seem to know much...
 
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Ted Spencer said:
Yes I haven't personally used the Sputnik yet, but again, enough knowledgeable friends and other experts have, and simply RAVED about it, that it seemed like a pretty solid recommendation. In case you aren't familiar with it, it's a 3 micron large-diaphragm tube condenser that's been compared favorably in the Pro Audio press to some of the most expensive mics made, past and present, *irrespective of cost*. Heady stuff, that. I'll probably get one myself soon, and I'll be pretty darned shocked if I don't like it.
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Well, let us know what you think when you do try one... I'm going to try and get my hands on one for a test, too... I of course have some old, old M-Audio prejudice to free myself from... but I try!
 
<He stipulated that he wants a better mic, and certainly one can do much better than a 421 for a documentary film VO. I've put 421s, RE20s (one of the most popular radio mics), SM58s and so on up against higher end mics in countless studio "shoot outs", and the higher end mics have won every time. Different ones for different voices to be sure (none of us diagrees on that factor), but the "finer" mics have always won. Every time.>

It is obvious that Nick is new to this game and to recommend microphones that go into the multi-thousand dollar range is a bit questionable. He is sitting alone in front of his computer and I do not think his voice will sound any better in this case.

Reading is always good, no question. That was not my point. My point is, for a beginner like him, KISS damn it. Keep it simple. It is not rocket science and if he really wants to get into all the details, well, go read, but again, according to my own mantra, doing it beats it everyday. It's like reading about sex....kind of ;-)

And no, you don't have to defend anything. You have an opinion, and I have another. Nothing more to it. As to my creds: I've been around. A great voice can do it with an SM58 (or a MD421) anytime while an untrained voice won't still get anywhere with a ....golden microphone. I think we agree here.

RE20s are used widely as are SM7s. This would be a valid suggestion as these mikes can also be easily sold again on ebay if Nick decides in the future to let others do VO.

Well, of course, he should learn about everything, but that goes back to my suggestion. I thought he wants to do, as simply as possible, his own voice over and not necessarily try to become an audio engineer.

By doing his own voiceover I figure he does all the other things also, like the video the VO is for, etc. That's recommendable. But it'll take him a lifetime to learn about all the intricate parts involved here and sooner or later he will find out that it's better to hire experts for certain things than trying to do everything.....


so, again, KISS,

keenast
 
Just tough i would give my opinion as well,

I found that to get acceptable vocal is quiet easy. But to get to profesionnal broadcast level takes a lot of investment. The results you get is only as good as the weakest link in you chain.

The chain goes like this, good artist, good acoustics in the voiceover room, good mic, good cable, good preamp, good compressor, good converters, good sound card, good operator, good monitoring environment, good monitors.

Unless you have good quality preamp, compressor and converters the higher end mics are a waste of money. Like driving a ferrari on a dirt road.
Even a u87 can sound like **** if the recording booth has bad acoustics.

Buying the mic is not the magic solution and i am afraid you will be disapointed if you spend all that money right away.

From what you said your equipment is, a better quality sound card and good preamp will probably make a bigger difference. Try to read on room acoustics as well.

Good luck!

-Pierre
 
Hello Pierre and thank you also to everyone else who provided me with all this feedback. Right now I just have the M-Audio Firewire 410. Before dishing out $3,000 on a U87 what would you suggest as a great sound card and great pre-amp???

I was under the impression that I was set with the Firewire 410.
That just goes to show how little I know, lol.
 
start ith room acoustics first - you will find you wont have allot left for other toys - usially that would improve your sound more then very expencive mic
 
I second oleg for the acoustics.
I looked at the specs of you sound card. You could just get a 2 channel ad converter(plug in the digital in of your card) to bypass the onboard converters and that would be a big step up.
I'm pretty sure you can find some rental place were you can try and see what you like best. Rent a preamp and a mic, experiment and learn. Then you can make wise choices with your money.

Cheers,

Pierre
 
A few points:

-Regarding the ~$500 M-Audio Sputnik, please see Dr. Fred Bashour's review from Pro Audio Review Magazine (for which, incidentally, I have also written several reviews), comparing it in the most favorable terms imaginable to his collection, which includes some of the most exotic, high end mics ever made:

http://www.m-audio.com/images/en/reviews/09.06.Sputnik.ProAudio.Review.pdf

-Regarding room acoustics:

VO/Narration recording is arguably the *least* critical of all all possible scenarios where room acoustics are concerned. A typical bedroom will generally work just fine. What's required is a room with medium damping - about halfway between "dead" and "live". A bedroom often fits this description because the typical bed, rugs, furniture, curtains etc. found there will create a pretty moderate acoustic. I have recorded many things in such environments for pro-level projects with "no apologies necessary" results.

The only really critical element otherwise is ambient noise. You will very much want a quiet environment, because narration usually sounds most pleasing when it's spoken in a pretty soft voice. Paradoxically, softer sounds bigger when recorded well and amplified to the desired level. Whatever it takes, you must find a spot to record in that has minimal ambient noise, but again, the solutions need not be expensive. You might need to be in a different room from your computer, although recent Mac towers and most laptops are very quiet. Inexpensive padded moving blankets or thick "comforters" can be used to block off noise sources as well as to damp down the room overall. You don't need to spend a lot of money to get good results.

There are some very effective software plugins for removing noise later, such as Digidesign's DINR or BIAS SoundSoapPro (and others), but these are not cheap, and take some experience to get the most out of.

-Regarding "soundcards":

In pro audio circles, there is no such thing. They are called "digital audio interfaces" in the case of something like the M-Audio 410, MOTU 828s, Digidesign MBoxes/003s etc. They connect directly to the host computer by Firewire or USB. Nowadays, the only card-based systems are the high end ones, like Digidesign's Pro Tools HD rigs. They *start* at over $10K and go into the high five figures, so we're not going there in Nicholas's case.

"Soundcards" are pretty much consumer audio computer peripherals, and are generally not used at all for pro audio applications.

-Regarding higher quality digital converters (than the M-Audio 410's):

There certainly are such things, but to get a worthwhile improvement over the sound of your 410, you'd probably have to spend at least half your $3000 on it, and easily all of it or more. Don't do it. Your money is far more effectively spent on a quality mic, preamp, equalizer and plugins. Trust me - I own about 10 such converters/interfaces, from cheapies to $8K jobs, and at your budget level you should stick with the 410 for now. Later on, if you have the budget and want to upgrade your signal path, something like an Apogee Rosetta 200 ($1800 at Sweetwater) might be a good choice.
 
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You folks should listen to what Ted is saying, his advice is right on, IMHO :)

Personally my recommendation for the person in the original posters situation would be to skip the U87 and 414 in favor of the TLM103, mostly because it sounds like the U87 might break the bank, and if you can't afford to get a quality preamp, you will really be wasting a lot on a good microphone.
 
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