shot in 24pa, capturing in 29.97...wtf?

C

ccd2004

New member
Hi all,
This is driving me nuts!
I've searched and researched and I can't find an answer as to what I should do.
I've shot a doc., 24pa, and when I capture the footage into fcp, its coming up as 29.97. I've recaptured and it still comes up as 29.97. I've even used different decks, and no matter what I use it captures at 29.97.:angry: Anyway, my question is this...(I know this has been an issue but I can't find a "real" solution to my problem) how do I fix this? If I use Cinema Tools to conform to 23.98 the audio make my subject (which is female) sound like she is a man. My only fix for that is to speed the footage up by 125%... Lame! How can I get the footage that I shot at 24pa to capture at 24pa, aka 23.98 instead of 29.97?
Thanks to all who have any insight.

-CD
 
So In order to fix my problem, I have to recapture everything on a new timeline with the settings for 29.97 minus the pulldown?
I've already cut approx. 65min. and am on the home stretch to a finished rough cut.
 
correct me if Im wrong
but couldn't you remove the pulldown (select the footage then TOOLS -> REMOVE ADV PULLDOWN) ?
and then drop that into a 23.98 timeline?
could save him a lot of time and effort
 
Not if he already captured with 23.98 as his frame rate- that means there are already frames missing that cannot be recovered.

Noah
 
ohh didn't know that
yeah thats what happened to me when i first used the DVX back at a film camp... killed my whole project and didn't really feel like fixing it after i edited the WHOLE thing
 
Here's my exact setup.
Sequence Presets: DV-NTSC 48kHz- 23.98
Capture Presets: DV-NTSC 48 kHz Advanced (2:3:3:2) Pulldown Removal
Device Control: FireWire NTSC

And some of my footage that was shot (dvx100 24pa) shows in fcp as 29.97 and the audio is all slowed when I add to my 23.98 timeline.

I hope that helps.

Thanks.
 
Those should be the correct settings, unless you have gone in and edited the defaults.

I know that there've been times when I've used HVX200 footage recorded at 1080i/24PA to Firestore that FCP hasn't been able to remove the cadence on capture, but selecting the all ready captured clips, and going through the tools menu to Remove Advanced Pulldown worked.

That does not explain why your audio would be screwed up though. The audio should be the same regardless of what framerate you are using, because it is not measured by frames, but by bits.

Are these tapes you are using dubs or something like that? Or did you take them straight from the camera to the deck?
 
agcohn said:
Those should be the correct settings, unless you have gone in and edited the defaults.

Didn't touch the defaults.

And the tapes I'm using are coming straight from the box, not dubs.

I swear that the setting on the camera never changed from 24pa and yet when I capture it to fcp, the pulldown removal isn't working and thus the footage stays at 29.97.

If I open the footage in the viewer it sounds/looks great and I just realized that the audio slows down if I conform it to 23.98 in Cinema Tools (CT).

If I don't conform to 23.98 in CT, and I make an edit in the viewer and place it in the timeline, the footage needs to be rendered and the audio is perfect.

This is fun. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif
Click to expand...
 
I'm going to jump in here on the sound side. Sound speed is the sample rate (not the bit depth). There are basically only two speeds in the NTSC world for film (video) and that is Film speed and Video speed. 23.98, 29.97 are all video speed frame rates. 24 is film speed (30 is also film speed with added frames).

Now Apple and the new age of video may be "redefining" terms but the real meaning of pull down is the speed change from Film to Video. To fit 24 frames into a 29.97 stream you speed up the video to 30 transfer frame for frame (doubling a few) so that you get 24 evenly into 30. Then you "pull down" that speed to run at 29.97 (otherwise you can't see it on a TV). So it all runs 0.1% slow.

So you shot at video speed, and you finishing at video speed, there is no need to pull anything down. What you needed to do was remove the extra frames. I'm not sure of all the things that happen but in essence you remove frames and make each frame a bit longer to exactly compensate for the frame loss so you end up at the same speed.

Having pulldown activated SHOULD slow down your timeline. You have told it that your original footage was shot at 24 fps (it wasn't) and that you need to slow it down so it will play on a NTSC system.

It's very unfortunate right now that the terms for all this stuff seem to be in the hands of marketing, who's job is more about confusion than clarity. 24P is not a term that should ever have seen the light of day. It is very confusing. You are NOT shooting 24 frames per second, you shooting 23.976. And that gets called 24, 24p, 23.98, 23.97 and 23.976 (probably more). And they keep talking as if you shooting at "film speed" but your not. In a general advertising consumer info way this is all fine but since that world and professional and semi professional world are very intertwined right now it causes a lot of problems.

THe long and short of it is that your either at film speed or Video speed (we wont get into PAL) and you only need to "pull down (or up)" if your moving between those speeds.
 
ccd2004 said:
agcohn said:
Those should be the correct settings, unless you have gone in and edited the defaults.

Didn't touch the defaults.

And the tapes I'm using are coming straight from the box, not dubs.

I swear that the setting on the camera never changed from 24pa and yet when I capture it to fcp, the pulldown removal isn't working and thus the footage stays at 29.97.

If I open the footage in the viewer it sounds/looks great and I just realized that the audio slows down if I conform it to 23.98 in Cinema Tools (CT).

If I don't conform to 23.98 in CT, and I make an edit in the viewer and place it in the timeline, the footage needs to be rendered and the audio is perfect.

This is fun. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif
Click to expand...

That would make sense. Your speed didn't change (for video) so you don't want to change the speed of your audio either. Remember there is no "frame rate" for sound. It is going along very stable at it's own "sample rate". Unless you change the "speed" of your timeline you don't need (or want) to change the "speed" of your audio.
Click to expand...
 
if you conform the video to 23.98, then put it in your timeline, then cut the audio out and replace it with the audio from your 29.97 file....wouldn't that fix your problem? Not ideal, but it's a workaround.
 
I have a similar problem. I recorded the footage onto Firestor with QuickTime 24P. When I imported the files into the timeline (24PA), toward the end of each clip file, there are artifacts everywhere. Worse yet, the sounds are not in sync with the video even the video seems to be fine.

Any one has any suggestion as to the recommended firestore capture setting for 24PA?
 
Abe said:
I have a similar problem. I recorded the footage onto Firestor with QuickTime 24P. When I imported the files into the timeline (24PA), toward the end of each clip file, there are artifacts everywhere. Worse yet, the sounds are not in sync with the video even the video seems to be fine.

Any one has any suggestion as to the recommended firestore capture setting for 24PA?
Click to expand...
I have never used the QT settings before.

I would do the DV setting if I were using the DVX, or PRO HD if I were using the HVX.

I have a feeling yours got screwed up, because there was a difference between what the camera was sending to the machine and what the firestore was reading. Similar to what Noah was talking about before. 24PA needs to be read as 59.97 in order to work correctly.

I don't know what QT 24P actually does, but it sounds like it was trying to record an actual 24P signal from your 24PA output, which would read it incorrectly.
 
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