film school necessary?

Remember - Those who cannot do, teach.
This is a highly offensive statement to teachers worldwide. It implies that teachers are obviously not as "good" as someone who's currently doing the job. That's patently ridiculous.

For example: I was, at one point, a world-class videogame programmer. Was lead programmer on Disney's The Lion King, and was one of two lead programmers on Command & Conquer: Red Alert, the fastest-selling PC videogame in history (at the time), and won the "Codie" award for best game of the year. I had professionally-published titles on at least 10 different platforms (Apple II, Atari 800, Commodore 64, Amiga 1000, MS-DOS, Windows 95, Super Nintendo, NEC TurboGrafx, Atari ST, Apple IIGS; probably more but those are what I can think of off the top of my head). I don't know any other game programmer who's ever gotten published/distributed titles on so many different systems.

Can I "do"? I'd say yes. I could "do" programming at the top level with the best on the globe. But I found that it's infinitely more satisfying to teach. INFINITELY. I got sick of the videogame industry grind.

There are plenty of teachers who can "do", but would rather teach. There are also plenty of those who "do" who can't teach at all.

I mean, let's turn that phrase around and put it a different way: "Those who can teach, do. Those who can't, suck."

(I imagine a few non-teachers out there might be miffed at that statement; perhaps they now understand how the legions of teachers feel?)

Yes, there are plenty of teachers out there who couldn't find their butt with both hands and a flashlight. Which is why I said you had to select a GOOD school, not just any school. But to imply that the teachers at that school are there because they washed out? That's such a nasty mischaracterization and an offensive statement.

I left programming at the top of my game. I'd done all I cared to do there. I went back into the video/film production side because it was my first love and I had a lot more to accomplish there. But I dare say I could still teach game design and programming infinitely better than 90% of the programmers I knew, because those guys were programmers and not teachers!

Look at Dov Simens. The guy was production manager on four low-budget movies. Learned the ropes the hard way, and decided that he hated that job (and I don't blame him, the production manager job is hateful for anyone but the right personality type). Found out that he really liked teaching though, and set up the Hollywood 2-Day Film School; it's a fantastic experience, extraordinarily informative for anyone new to the biz, I highly recommend it, and Dov definitely found his calling.

Another example: Jerry Molen. The guy had a bit of a career producing a couple of movies you may have heard of: "Rain Man", "Days of Thunder", "Twister", "Jurassic Park", "Jurassic Park II", "Minority Report", and "Schindler's List". One of the highest-grossing producers in hollywood history. Can he "do" the job? Better than anyone else in the game, yes. But he's tired of that ratrace, he'd much rather settle down and teach someone else.

Sorry to go on, but you punched a raw nerve here. People learn from teachers (not someone who has the job of teacher, but someone who actually teaches). Implying that someone who chooses to teach a profession, rather than to continue in that profession, is somehow inferior to someone who stays in the profession -- that's extremely unfair, and frequently a gross mischaracterization (but not always; there are plenty of lousy teachers out there too!)
 
Sorry, Barry. maybe it was kinda harsh. I didn't make that quote up, though. It's been around for some time.

Frankly, I never thought of it the way you presented it. I stand by the rest of my comments, though.
 
I have a part time job at a production company shooting, doing grip work, running sound on an on call basis. I also do a lot of freelance work and I'm going to be applying for a part time job as a news videographer. I'm still going to school but not for film. I was going to go the film school route but figured I can learn most of that stuff as I go. Plus it gives me a good head start to my professional career by starting young. I think it all comes down to what kind of work you can do. If you do good work and know your stuff, film school is kind of irrelevant in my mind.
 
If you do good work and know your stuff, film school is kind of irrelevant in my mind.
Again, depends on what you want to do. Can you learn architecture by being a carpenter? I'd dare say not. And you won't learn directing by watching someone direct either. You can learn gaffing by watching someone else gaff, and asking questions. But to be a director of photography? That ain't gonna cut it. At least, to be a great one, that just isn't enough.

I didn't make that quote up, though. It's been around for some time.
Oh, I know. But that doesn't make it any less offensive. I mean, the US Constitution's been around for some time too, but it prevents women from voting and labeled people of African descent as "3/5ths of a person". Just 'cause something's been around a while, that doesn't make it right! :)

Okay, let me put it this way: who will you learn more about basketball from, Yao Ming, or Mike Krzyzewski? I guarantee you anyone would learn a ton more by attending a Coach K basketball camp than they would *ever* learn from watching Kobe Bryant play. Sure, Kobe or Yao would mop the floor with Mike Kryzewski in a game of one-on-one. So? You're talking about what you're gonna learn, right? Which one do you think has more to offer you?

I know lots of guys want to think that just watching others work will qualify them to do the same thing, but that's just silly. People learn from experience, and they learn from teachers. If there's *any* shortcut to success, it's to wisely pick great teachers to study from.
 
Okay, let me put it this way: who will you learn more about basketball from, Yao Ming, or Mike Krzyzewski? I guarantee you anyone would learn a ton more by attending a Coach K basketball camp than they would *ever* learn from watching Kobe Bryant play. Sure, Kobe or Yao would mop the floor with Mike Kryzewski in a game of one-on-one. So? You're talking about what you're gonna learn, right? Which one do you think has more to offer you?
But if you are on the practice squad or a minor league team yer gonna learn more than you could from a camp. Very few players are ready to make the leap from college starter to pro starter w/o a few years of pro experience under their belt.


I know lots of guys want to think that just watching others work will qualify them to do the same thing, but that's just silly.
I'm sure we've all run into people that think just because they have a degree they are qualified to do a job they've never actually done before.

People learn from experience, and they learn from teachers. If there's *any* shortcut to success, it's to wisely pick great teachers to study from.
Agreed. But school isn't the only place to find great teachers. The best education I've gotten has been from great teachers in the field. Sometimes it was working w/my college instructors on extracurricular projects, and sometimes it was gleaning knowledge from editors before or after my shift.

It's a balancing act between theory and practical experience which is why I always tell students to do as much work outside of the classroom as they can (extracurricular projects, part time industry jobs, etc.,).


-A
 
Q. What do all of these people have in common?

Aristotle
Albert Einstein
Issac Asimov
J. Robert Oppenheimer
Confucius
Issac Newton
Thomas Hobbes
Plato
Galileo Galilei
Louisa May Alcott
Saint Thomas Aquinas
Oliver Wendell Holmes
Joseph Campbell
John Adams (President)
Sunuchi Suzuki
T. S. Eliot
Friedrich Nietzsche
Woodrow Wilson
Henry David Thoreau
Renee Descartes
Jean-Paul Satre
Saint Augustine
Simone de Beauvoir
James Joyce
D. H. Lawrence
C. S. Lewis
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
John Dewey
William James
Buddha
Mohammad

A. They were all teachers.

Not to mention this guy: Jesus (OK, a carpenter by trade, but you get my point).
 
Adding to that, this entire conversation suffers from what Søren Kierkegaard (probably another teacher as well, I should add) called the false dilemma, or the either/or complex. Meaning to go to film school or not in order to find your path is not a black/white, either/or choice. The success will be determined far more by the individual's character make-up. There is no defined "best" path in this business by any set objective criteria.
 
Adding to that, this entire conversation suffers from what Søren Kierkegaard (probably another teacher as well, I should add) called the false dilemma, or the either/or complex. Meaning to go to film school or not in order to find your path is not a black/white, either/or choice. The success will be determined far more by the individual's character make-up. There is no defined "best" path in this business by any set objective criteria.


100 % AGREE

Now can you help me find it ? :lipsrseal
 
I find almost all of taormina's comments in this thread arrogant, under-thought, and overly-biased. It seems as if he/she is raging out from not getting into the film schools he/she wanted or not having enough money to go there. Everyone else, however, has made some quality points. It doesn't matter what you do, it's how you do it. End of story.

P.S. I have no idea why all my text is underlined.
 
Well, I accept his/her apology to Barry's comments, but that insulting "those that can't do" quote has always bothered me quite a bit as well, which is why I posted that (very short, actually) list of famous people who were teachers at one point in their lives.
 
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. As for the raging out part - buddy - go piss up a rope.

I work in production, I'm not a shooter, even though I enjoy it. I hire DPs all the time. And as for money.....I own ALL of my own stuff. 3 ton grip, lighting, steadicam, dollies, you name it.

I am the person reading the resumes - and I don't think film school is all that important.







I find almost all of taormina's comments in this thread arrogant, under-thought, and overly-biased. It seems as if he/she is raging out from not getting into the film schools he/she wanted or not having enough money to go there. Everyone else, however, has made some quality points. It doesn't matter what you do, it's how you do it. End of story.

P.S. I have no idea why all my text is underlined.
 
OK, Agreed that one has to learn from someone else(school Or aprenticeship method)
What if one cannot afford school and do not get chance to aprentice.
It is little depressing to know that one cannot become GREAT cinematographer unless he/she takes up any of the above method.
What's the quality of education from other options such as training DVDs, workshops, boot camps and experiments.
Barry conducts bootcamp, aren't they lighter on the pocket and allows us to experiment?
This is not to question anyone but to understand the non traditional methods to achieve the objective.
 
I should also add that several ASC cinematographers are not film school attendees or graduates. Saying you can be a great shooter but not a great cinematographer, or not fully understand your craft without going to film school flies in the face of this evidence. Yes, You can achieve the highest honor bestowed upon a DP in this country without going to film school. Thankfully, people more sensible than those on this board are in charge of disbursing that honor.
 
I work in production, I'm not a shooter, even though I enjoy it. I hire DPs all the time. And as for money.....I own ALL of my own stuff. 3 ton grip, lighting, steadicam, dollies, you name it. I am the person reading the resumes - and I don't think film school is all that important.

owning equipment and reading resumes doesn't mean you know anything.

who at your production company made this ... (I did modify this because I was rude)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe27Guaeeu4
 
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Hi Nomadic,

Thanks for being insulting. I believe that vid is in the 'screwing around' category. We are not able to post any of our for hire work in it's entirety (because it does not belong to us), so I can't display that except for in clips.

People always have to take it to the next level, don't they?
 
Sorry. It was out of line... but after reading your posts, and then looking at your site, I just didn't see the connection of what you were saying and the videos posted. We all shoot stuff for fun, but I just assumed that the things you place on your website would represent your best work.

btw, the 35mm project looks pretty good. Who was the dp? What other kinds of work do you do? any of the music videos online?
 
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Hey Nomadic,

Yeah, you'd think I'd have my best stuff up there. It's really just a scratch pad for me. The thing is, I'm not a cinematographer and don't claim to be, even though I have all this stuff. I want to learn, to perfect the art, but the main thrust is production for other people, and I direct.

The DP that did th Ensnaring is a real talented guy by the name of David Fox. He's on IMDb but there are a few dave foxes. He's at www.foxcinematography.com - and I guy I consider a very good DP.

I suppose part of the reason this thread angered me was people like Dave. He is not a film school graduate. He understands lighting like very few other DPs I know. He isn't famous, but knows what he is doing. He and I collaborate on most of our projects for hire. He's my right hand man.

The upsetting thing to me is how anyone could think he is any less of a DP because he did not attend fim school. So I guess I took it personally.

I have kind of developed a TV pilot niche. I'm shooting one soon with a major star on a currently running TV series. It's all low budg, but these guys get these ideas and want them filmed to take to their higher ups. I'm dying to film my own feature in the spring.

My career goal is to be a director in the vein of Soderbergh....not so much a director / DP but a DP's director, if you know what I mean.

In any case, peace man. I wish you well in your studies.
 
I should also add that several ASC cinematographers are not film school attendees or graduates. Saying you can be a great shooter but not a great cinematographer, or not fully understand your craft without going to film school flies in the face of this evidence.
True -- you absolutely can, and I'll go so far as to say that of the people I've worked with in those crafts, those who were the best were actually the ones who hadn't gone to film school.

Absolutely agreed. I think I said earlier that if what you want to do in the film business is excel at one of the crafts, yes that can be learned by apprenticeship and doing. What I said (and I hope you don't disagree) is that for someone wanting to be a director (which probably includes at least 93% of the membership of any film-oriented discussion group) then that's not something one's going to learn just by watching someone else shoot a film. That's going to take some serious study and learning, not just doing. As I said before, a carpenter can learn to be a fantastic carpenter without ever setting foot inside "carpentry school" or, for that matter, going to architecture school. But an aspiring architect will learn little to nothing about architecture by hanging around nailing boards together. Architecture demands an understanding of so many of the arts and solid mathematical grounding. Directing and writing films (at least, good ones) requires an understanding of storytelling, character, motivation, psychology, philosophy, and many other things.

That's all I was trying to say. In fact, if we go back to the original poster's question "is film school necessary?" the answer would have to be: no. Whatever you want to do can be learned outside of the structure of a formal film school, obviously. But a good school might greatly accelerate your learning process, so maybe it'd be necessary for someone depending on their circumstances, their access to equipment, and their learning patterns.
 
You know what, Barry? After spending the last few weeks reading lighting book after lighting book, fiddling with my lights in the garage, I have to admit you're right. I just didn't notice it. I am at school right now. Laszlo Kovacs and John Alonzo were just teaching me.

Here I've been arguing against film school and I just realized that I've been trying to perfect lighting by learning from the masters - in this case, from a book with their techniques. It's school without a professor, but an education nevertheless.

Funny thing is, I almost always hire a gaffer and DP when I do my projects. I tell them the mood I'm looking for and I get results. But I never really understood WHY they set things up the way they do. And it bugged me. So I hit the books to figure it out, even if it isn't my job.

This impromptu film school makes me a better director. It's not formalized school, but school nevertheless.

I concede you're right. A classroom would be better, but at this stage in my life with how busy I am, hours of self study and practice will have to do.

Thanks for pointing it out, Barry.
 
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