Thinking of shooting a feature on HV20 - need advice on how to record audio

[wabbit]

I suppose it is kind of ridiculous, but if you don't have a budget, you are defiantly not going to "fix it in post".

Well put. For small budget films, "fix in post" is delaying the invitable. If you don't have the time or money to get sound during production, how are you going to spend twice as much of both time and money to "fix in post."

But whatever you think will get your movie made, knock yourself out. I will say I can't tell you how many calls I get from second time producers trying to "do it right" this time. Of course they think $1000 is a fortune I should jump at compared to the $100 they spent last time

Cheers

 

[Shawn Philip Nelson]

Well put. For small budget films, "fix in post" is delaying the invitable. If you don't have the time or money to get sound during production, how are you going to spend twice as much of both time and money to "fix in post."

Exactly!! I strongly feel that production sound is even MORE important to the indie filmmaker because of the lack of funds to truly "fix it in post".

 

[c.g._eads]

Exactly!! I strongly feel that production sound is even MORE important to the indie filmmaker because of the lack of funds to truly "fix it in post".

I can understand that up to a certain point. But when you have no money and you have to wait to come up with enough dough for a proper sound unit, you still got absolutely nothing. But if you shoot something with average sound that's otherwise good, you at least have SOMETHING. And that's something (especially if it's good) you can take to people for finishing or post funds. I mean what would you rather have? A film with average sound or no film at all?

I don't really like the way that any general yet serious question in this forum ends up turning into , "Sound takes years to understand". Yes, we know. Sound takes time. Everything you'll ever want to learn takes time. But five posts down and nobody is even attempting to answer my question anymore. I offered three scenarios and left a fourth open for suggestions and asked for your opinion. Instead of discouraging me, why don't you allow me to shoot the thing and learn from my mistakes? Believe me, I understand the importance of sound. I am doing a couple of sound tests before I shoot the movie. If the sound sucks, I'm not going to shoot the movie. If it's acceptable. I will. But I don't even know how to do the tests if people don't offer suggestions.

Another question. How does one person on this forum have the right to tell another person that they can't shoot a feature? In this world where "Hollywood" is built to discourage the up-and-coming director, this is supposed to be the one place where people can come and be encouraged to shoot their film. Not another place where they're told "wait til you have this." And "wait til you learn that." And "no you're not ready. No you're not ready. No you're not ready." I'm not making Citizen Kane here. Just my first film.

Think outside the box for once instead of going back to what you're used to. A question is being posed. The circumstances aren't ideal, but let's give a guy some suggestions that he can try under those un-ideal circumstances. Film is a medium where you learn best through doing. If people want to continue to spout off about their "philosophy on sound" well then start a "philosophy on sound" post. Let's please stay on topic here.

 

[saneproductions]

I can see where you would be frustrated by us telling you not to do it. We are really not bad guys...

I get a little worried when it is a feature because the time involved is so immense that I can't even imagine it. Things need to stay consistent throughout. It seems like doing a few shorts to sort things out is the best way to start.

When suggestions are given like...

Read Jay Rose's book

Rent your sound gear

Find a volunteer sound person from a community college film program

Do a few shorts first

Etc.

... and those suggestions seem to be ignored instead of saying "ya, I think I will do that" then it is easy to think you may be headed for creating garbage. You don't have to have expensive gear to make a movie (an oktava a decent boom and shock/wind protection w/ sony 7506 headphones should be a good start), but if you try to learn on the job without the help of an expert or at least reading a book about it and getting a film student to help, you could end up wasting a lot people's of time. Those people won't take you seriously later when you do have a little more know how... So really, we are just trying to help..

 

[saneproductions]

and remember, you are asking for free advice!

 

[Shawn Philip Nelson]

Well how would it be if someone went onto an amatuer racing message board and said "I want to drag race this weekend and I only have $500, how do I do it???"

Dude, we are giving you advice based on experience. I'm no 'expert' but I've been busting to make indie films for just over 4 years. I dumped just under $1000 into sound 3 years ago thinking I was the **** and did a mini-feature (55 min) and then was baffled when the sound sucked. Now that I humbled myself, buckled down and learned a ton and spent around $3000 on sound, I have a clue about what it takes. Go ahead, make a feature without doing your homework and have fun. It's just you came for advice. I'm just telling ya, if you want sound that will elevate you (instead of solidly putting you alongside all the others) then either get someone else to do it, or max out a card and spend some time with books.

Asking for advice and then venting angrily at the response is, not on the wise side of things...

 

[wabbit]

get someone who knows a bit and would like to explore further. Community colleges often have a sound dept with people studying music recording. You can solicit them for volunteers.

You got plenty-o-advice (you can consider them "option 4") and no one is saying sound is a mystical art. It's actually pretty simple but just like calculus you have to crack open a book and/or practice a bit to get it down.

I don't see many people grabbing a camera and expecting to shoot a quality picture without doing a little research first; lighting, DOF, movement, etc. Is it that hard to understand that it takes a similar amount of effort to learn the sound basics?

But I'm sick and tired of waiting to get enough money to hire a dedicated sound guy (and camera guy, and prop guy, etc. etc. etc.) to make my film so I have to make some sacrifices. Any suggestions would help.

Considering that you lay out the premise that you have been "waiting" to shoot your first feature, I think offering up the friendly suggestion that you may want to start with a short is completely practical. Not just for sound, but lighting, continuity, editing, etc. There are a million things that can go wrong and practicing before asking a group of people to give you a month of their life seems worthy of at least considering.

I can guarentee you this; if you shoot a feature with your cast and crew believing something viewable will come out of it and you end up with garbage...kiss all your good will goodbye. It is very doubtful they will give you a month of their lives again.

Good luck

 

[c.g._eads]

I can guarentee you this; if you shoot a feature with your cast and crew believing something viewable will come out of it and you end up with garbage...kiss all your good will goodbye. It is very doubtful they will give you a month of their lives again.

Good luck

That's true but you run that risk even if you do have great sound. Or a great picture. So many terrible things can happen on a feature that you can't plan for. Are you going to worry about them for the rest of your life or shoot? I truly believe that's what sets the filmmakers with careers apart from the ones who keep talking about having careers. Just go f'ing do it. Shawn, true you had terrible sound on that first film. But how invaluable was that experience in teaching you? I understand the place most of you are coming from. You know what *great* sound sounds like and you know how to get it and it isn't cheap. But since most people don't have that, how bout "You know, this isn't going to be perfect, but if you get a, b, and c, and you approach it this way, you might have a shot." (such as sane's advice. thanks sane!)

I've done shorts. But I'm sure you guys know the feeling when it's like "how many more shorts are you going to make before you take that next step? Five? Ten? Twenty?" At what point do you determine you're ready? It's so subjective. All I know is that I'm (as far as where I am in my life) ready to shoot a feature. I've planned it very carefully so that it can be made for a low budget. The thing I'm the least experienced in is sound. Just trying to get some advice from the experts. Not a lecture. Believe me, I have my parents for that.

 

[SMuir]

I mean what would you rather have? A film with average sound or no film at all?

Are you asking that as a director, distributer, exhibiter or viewer?

You have a third option in there: make a film with good sound. If you're going to make the financial and personal commitment needed to make an independant feature, why on earth would you not want every aspect of it to shine? Sure, a distributer with deep pockets may swoop down and hand you a briefcase full of cash to replace all your dialogue with ADR, but you'll be much more likely to secure post-production funding if you have clean and professional dialogue to start with.

Moreover, you don't have to run out and buy $5000 in equipment sight-unseen. Rent a small sound kit, and you'll be able to get yourself great equipement for a reasonable price. Take advantage of weekend rates, and don't be afraid to beg the rental house to cut you a deal.

I offered three scenarios and left a fourth open for suggestions and asked for your opinion. Instead of discouraging me, why don't you allow me to shoot the thing and learn from my mistakes?

None of the folks who've posted on this thread are trying to stop you from shooting. You're free to heed or ignore advice as you see fit.

I am doing a couple of sound tests before I shoot the movie. If the sound sucks, I'm not going to shoot the movie. If it's acceptable. I will. But I don't even know how to do the tests if people don't offer suggestions.

Alright, then. A good place to start would be to take a couple of lines of dialogue from each of your scenes, enough to provide a representation of the conditions under which you will be recording. Get together some friends or family members (they need not be actors) and shoot a technical rehearsal of the scenes in question. Whenever possible, shoot in the locations you are planning to use during production. Try that out, and see what it looks/sounds like.

Another question. How does one person on this forum have the right to tell another person that they can't shoot a feature?

Check your local constitution, there's probably something in there. The advice you've been given has all been entirely valid, based on years of experience and learning things the hard way. Do you really consider sage advice freely given to be in any way holding you back?

Film is a medium where you learn best through doing.

You can shorten that to just "Film is a medium." Some folks learn better by doing. Some folks learn better in a formal school. For some, apprenticing and mentorship are the way to go. I've been fortunate to have had a combination of all three, and I'd probably be pretty much lost in film sound without any one of them. It takes years to become competent at many disciplines (years more to become good), and film's no exception.

 

[chun]

I am also buying the HV20 (with Red Rock's M2) and am looking at my audio options. I was going to go for the SD 302 coupled with a cheap recorder like the Zoom H4. However, after adding it up, the cost comes quite close to a SD 702. I will be shooting mainly shorts and documentaries so do you think it's a better idea to get the SD 702?

Sound Devices recommend pairing the 302 and 702 together, but is that really necessary? The 702 seems to have the important features like high pass filter, phantom power, limiter, etc. Furthermore according to SD, the 702 has superior mic preamps compared to their field mixers such as the 302. At some point though, I will probably upgrade to something like the HVX200 so I am guessing a 302 would be applicable for use with the camera?

Lastly, is there a real world quality gain from recording in 24bit for dialogue?