30i, 24p, And 24pa In Same Timeline- Fcp 6

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DANODOO

New member
I have just started editting a documentary that was shot mostly in 24pA (about 80 hours) using a DVX-100b and using old footage that was shot on a Sony DCR TRV950 in 30i (about 5 hours). I unfortunately have some footage that was shot on the DVX in 24p(about 10 hours)- the camera was used by some one else- I didn't check the settings when I got it back and ended up shooting some critical footage in the 24p format. How can I get all of this footage onto a 24 fps timeline in FCP6?

Again:

How does one go about putting 24p, 24pA, and 30i in the same 24fps timeline in FCP6?

I have seen a few discussions on this, but there does not seem to be consensus. Perhaps this is due to there being multiple methods? Perhaps their are multiple outcomes as well in terms of output quality? It also seems that some people seem to think that 24 fps and 23.98fps are the same. Others disagree. I am at a loss. Any clarification would be a great help.

Thanks in advance.

Dan Doolan
 
NoahK said:
I'd go with a 29.97 timeline, leave all pulldowns intact.

Noah
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Would it then be possible to get to 24fps? or Would I lose all the aesthetic benefits of having shot 24p? Would you go 29.97 to avoid losing image quality? Or for the simplicity of getting all the footage onto the same timeline?

I was really hoping to end up with the 24fps aesthetic. The 30i footage can look like crap. Does this information suggest a different answer? I hope so.

Thanks for the time and consideration!
 
Aesthetically it would be identical. It's just the issue of you lose an easy output to film. If that's not a concern, staying at 29,97 is the simplest way to combine the multiple frame rates.

Noah
 
NoahK said:
Aesthetically it would be identical. It's just the issue of you lose an easy output to film. If that's not a concern, staying at 29,97 is the simplest way to combine the multiple frame rates.

Noah
Click to expand...

So let me see if I have got this straight.

I only want a 24fps timeline if I am outputting to film.

Otherwise the 29.97fps will work.

The 24p and 24pA will look like 24fps even in the 29.97 timeline. This is because while they are recorded at 29.97 with the pulldown removal marked (pulldown removal only refers to the frames that will be removed to get the footage from the 29.97fps to the 24fps(or 23.98fps)) the image is recorded at 23.98, with a field/frame* pattern of either 2:3:3:2 or 2:3:2:3(instead of 2:2:2:2:2, which would be 30i), at 29.97fps. The frames to be removed are marked for converting to 23.98 later.

*These ratios refer to the field numbers- each two fields represent one frame. The

So the 30i, 24p and 24pA will look, respectively, like 30fps, 24fps, and 24fps, when put on a 29.97 timeline with no image quality loss.

Therefore I should for my setup and when capturing, I should just set everything for DV-NTSC-48khz?

Do I understand this correctly?

If so, it has taken a while. If not....
 
The 24p and 24pA will not look exactly the same. 24pA will look a bit more stuttery than 24p, because it uses a pulldown intended for easy removal of excess frames, not for viewing. However, it isn't so significant that the end result is ruined, so you can chose to leave it in if you're short on time. If you want to fix it, remove the pulldown from the 24pA footage so that it plays at 24fps. Then add 2:3:2:3 pulldown, so that it matches with your 24p footage.
 
MacWorm said:
The 24p and 24pA will not look exactly the same. 24pA will look a bit more stuttery than 24p, because it uses a pulldown intended for easy removal of excess frames, not for viewing.
Click to expand...

I would agree on a technical level, however having looked at a lot of 24pA on a good monitor it's really a very minor visual difference. Might not be worth the trouble it would take to change.

Noah
 
DANODOO said:
So the 30i, 24p and 24pA will look, respectively, like 30fps, 24fps, and 24fps, when put on a 29.97 timeline with no image quality loss.

Therefore I should for my setup and when capturing, I should just set everything for DV-NTSC-48khz?

Do I understand this correctly?
Click to expand...

That is correct. I suggest doing some tests to confirm for yourself visually if you get what you expect. But the thinking is right on. :)

Noah
 
If your pulldown pattern is pretty consistent over reach tape and even if you just want to go to DVD and not theatrical, I'd consider removing pulldown with cinema tools for the 24p stuff, using advanced pulldown removal for the 24pA stuff, then magic bullet or film effects for the 30i footage. It'll take forever, but the whole project will look a lot more consistent and editing in a progressive timeline is much more pleasant. If your pulldown pattern is consistent, you could just capture the entire tape as one clip, remove pulldown, then chop it up to edit it... Otherwise, you're just asking for slightly weird looking artifacts: fades between different pulldown cadences, and composited effects and titles that move with a different feel from the video onscreen and possibly trouble when a DVD player tries to remove pulldown for a high def set or whatnot.

If you have a lot of time I'd just bite the bullet and bring everything to 24fps, otherwise a 30i timeline will work, but it isn't the ideal solution. (Of course, if you shot 30p for any o the footage, you'd have to go with a 30i timeline but luckily that's not the case and your 30i footage will look like 60fps, not 30.)
 
Well that's one way to do it but anyone who's ever used Magic Bullet will tell you it's going to take decades of rendering time from your life for a very minimal visual difference. Not to mention you'll have audio sync issues, correlating the newly recreated 24 fps material to 29.97 recorded audio.

I'm a major fan of keeping things simple. When you have to mix with 60i/29.97 and 24fps final output is not a requirement, editing all on a 29.97 timeline is the most straightforward way.

Noah
 
Thanks for all the clarifications. I think I am finally starting to understand these formatting issues. I greatly appreciate both of your comments!

Dan
 
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