High-Res Monitoring Solution: Low Cost Semi-DIY project

[siniarch]

No Kholi,
The screen resolution is native 1024x768. and yes it does have a setting to power the brightness on the tubes, and a setting to adjust the brightness on the display.
plus I'm driving the display a little brighter than what the company specs. are. it reduces the life of the diplay slightly, but in direct sun it will be a god send.

Matty_G and I are doing castings right now, and he did bring his marshal. I'll let you guys know how the comparison went.

 

[USLatin]

well it seems I might get a divorce before we get married... Michelle will kill me when she hears that now I am considering getting an on-board LCD...

then again I have a whole scene that has uber soft coverage on her and since it was a fig rig shaky scene it is way too crazy... having one of these with almost 4 times the pixels of the built in would have kept our operator informed of the need to re-shoot...

 

[Kholi]

No Kholi,
The screen resolution is native 1024x768. and yes it does have a setting to power the brightness on the tubes, and a setting to adjust the brightness on the display.
plus I'm driving the display a little brighter than what the company specs. are. it reduces the life of the diplay slightly, but in direct sun it will be a god send.

Matty_G and I are doing castings right now, and he did bring his marshal. I'll let you guys know how the comparison went.

Great. Can you take pictures as well? Thanks for your info.

That'll be the first sub 10" LCD that I've seen with a native resolution of 1024 x 768. Velly nice. It'd be cool to see a manufacturer's sheet on that screen! I've got no intention of buying it... anything around the Marshall's price range seems unreasonable to me: if you're going to spend 100 less than a Marshall building one, you'd might as well purchase the Marshall and get warranties, brand name, resell value, etc. That's prolly just me.

I did NOT get the converter today. =( I think they lied when they said USPS priority from CA to CA. Lame.

Guess tomorrow.

Oh yeah and tell Matty_G to give me his SGpro, please.

 

[Lucas Adamson]

Hey Kholi,
I got the Xenarc 7000V today and it is sweet. It is exactly the same case as your liliput too, with that tiny connector I don't recognise. The S-video part of my cable has been cut off (I got the screen new, but cheap because this had been removed for something else in desperation)but I still have RCA connectors for audio and video. I would like a new cable, but have no idea what to look for. I also need a mount for the hotshoe and a battery or two. How long will a 1800maH Li-ion last on a 7" monitor? I thought that if it's not long enough, I may have to go down the lead acid route, but that really anchors you down in weight. Your help would be appreciated folks - with my flip out broken, I'm pretty keen to get this baby on the road.

All the best
Lucas

 

[Lucas Adamson]

Also, frivolous perhaps, but I want an Ikan 7" monitor hood. It's $24.95, which rocks, but they want $100 to ship to the UK!!!!??!! Anyone fancy forwarding one on for me in the spirit of DIY International brotherhood?

 

[Kholi]

Hey Kholi,
I got the Xenarc 7000V today and it is sweet. It is exactly the same case as your liliput too, with that tiny connector I don't recognise. The S-video part of my cable has been cut off (I got the screen new, but cheap because this had been removed for something else in desperation)but I still have RCA connectors for audio and video. I would like a new cable, but have no idea what to look for. I also need a mount for the hotshoe and a battery or two. How long will a 1800maH Li-ion last on a 7" monitor? I thought that if it's not long enough, I may have to go down the lead acid route, but that really anchors you down in weight. Your help would be appreciated folks - with my flip out broken, I'm pretty keen to get this baby on the road.

All the best
Lucas

Oooo nice. The Xenarc screens are highly rated! Which model did you get? the 2007 or 2008 model? I'm going to post up 3 different LCD's that should provide the highest quality for under 550 (Completed).

I think that the weird SVideo connection you're referring to is the 7pin Svideo connector: it can carry RGB/VGA signals to the internal processor with no quality degradation. What you'll need to do is find another 7Pin S-video connector and splice the wires back together I believe. Check MONOPRICE or something similar to that.

The other slot connector that you see is either the RCA connector (special cable) or the VGA connector (D-Sub 15pin). Something like the connector on the back of a CRT PC monitor. It will also carry the signal you need and you can find converters that go from S-Video to VGA, RCA to VGA, etc. I think LCD4VIDEO on EBAY or www.LCD4VIDEO.com has those.

As far as the batteries go, I have yet to test out how long the ones I have ordered power the LCD. Siniarch has some, he'd be a good person to answer the battery question until I have field usage or can let the monitor sit for a while to run the battery down.

 

[USLatin]

ok... so:

there are two reasons to get an on-board LCD, flip for a lens adapter and more pixels for focus... I don't have a lens adapter like many here but I will rent for worthy projects so my personal main concern is pixels...

Marshall is about $1300 and it is a 384,000 pixel screen...

Kholi is working up a Marshall contender for $550 plus arm...

Siniarch is talking ~$1200? for a 786,432 pixel screen...


if we considered only this for simplicity's sake and forgot that Siniarch's LCD is actually brighter than the Marshall and probably than any other solution discussed here then people like me can look at the difference in comparison to the built-in LCD on HVX's which if I remember correctly has only 220,000 pixels...


So for the HVX built-in LCD comparison:
$550 gets you 174%
$1200 gets you 357%

However those numbers don't matter, what ne need to look at is the performance in terms of the format:

Sadly for 1080:
built-in gives you 10.6%
$550 gives you 18.5%
$1200 gives you 37.9%

However for 720:
built-in gives you 23.8%
$550 gives you 41.6%
$1200 gives you 85.3%

For 480:
you just go with the $550 and we hate you cause you get 1:1

so... if you shoot 1080 you are not going to see enough gain in pixel count to make your life completely different... it will only help a small to indiscernible bit if you go 800 x 600 and a helpful but still very not-enough amount with 1024 x 768...

but! if you shoot 720p... knowing that it is about half the size of 1080p which sucks if you shoot to get projected on big festivals with big screens, but yet this is the sweet spot of the HVX and 720p is know to hold up quite nicely on medium screens: you then get a helpful but still very not-enough pixel count from only $550 plus the flip! most definitely a deal! however! if you can spend the $1200 you have a practically-there pixel count at 85.3% the pixels required to display 720p... I mean WTF... that is so close even Hollywood high class film buffs can't complain about the workflow that much

hummm....


THIS IS TOO TOUGH... I NEED A BEER

 

[USLatin]

how much for the rigs with the arms and cables?

 

[siniarch]

OK did some quick comparisons with the marshal and my design. the image is FANTASTIC on my design. definitely better than the marshal. I think its also brighter, but I don't want to say something without getting some sort of light meter on it.

The viewing angle is amazing also. The marshal is ok on 3 sides, but looking from the bottom which becomes the top once you flip it, the image fades pretty fast. on this one, the image is really good on all sides.
I have to say, I'm super happy with it.

Now the bad parts:

it get a little more ghosting on 1080 as opposed to the marshall when you whip pan and there is a bright image with a dark area in the center of it. (I don't do much of this whiping so no big deal for me, and in 720 not noticeable)

The marshal had some ghosting also, but noticeable less.

Also the monitor has a blue mode, but I wasn't able to use it to calibrate when feeding the color bars. So I'll have to check on this.

Other than that, I think its awesome. It will weigh more than the marshall, but then again the 8.4" panasonic weighs in somewhere around 4.4lbs without batteries. I think I'll keep mine under 4lbs. I think the marshall is 2.75lbs. Mine will be around 3.5lbs

hope this helps

 

[Kholi]

ok... so:

there are two reasons to get an on-board LCD, flip for a lens adapter and more pixels for focus... I don't have a lens adapter like many here but I will rent for worthy projects so my personal main concern is pixels...

Even without a Lens adapter, I can certainly see the importance of having a larger on-board. The little HVX LCD hurts my eyes after a while, even if I can focus tack-sharp with M2 on it utilizing just that.

Marshall is about $1300 and it is a 384,000 pixel screen...

Kholi is working up a Marshall contender for $550 plus arm...

Siniarch is talking ~$1200? for a 786,432 pixel screen...

Correction on that. My target is the iKan monitor. I can't see my solution effectively competing with a Marshall monitor in any other category than PRICE. Quality is an entirely different ballpark. I think Siniarch's target is the Marshall HD monitor.

I think the iKan and ToteVision LCD's are healthy price points, and apparently so do other people considering that the iKan is pretty much back-ordered everywhere.

if we considered only this for simplicity's sake and forgot that Siniarch's LCD is actually brighter than the Marshall and probably than any other solution discussed here then people like me can look at the difference in comparison to the built-in LCD on HVX's which if I remember correctly has only 220,000 pixels...


So for the HVX built-in LCD comparison:
$550 gets you 174%
$1200 gets you 357%

However those numbers don't matter, what ne need to look at is the performance in terms of the format:

Sadly for 1080:
built-in gives you 10.6%
$550 gives you 18.5%
$1200 gives you 37.9%

However for 720:
built-in gives you 23.8%
$550 gives you 41.6%
$1200 gives you 85.3%

For 480:
you just go with the $550 and we hate you cause you get 1:1

so... if you shoot 1080 you are not going to see enough gain in pixel count to make your life completely different... it will only help a small to indiscernible bit if you go 800 x 600 and a helpful but still very not-enough amount with 1024 x 768...

Indeed. If you find a monitor that really has 1024 x 768 native resolution, the gains aren't enough to justify the price tag. You still do not get 1280 x 720 correct? I can surmise that if an 8.4" LCD has 1024x768, using it jacks up the cost for no real gains. Thus, iKan's, Marshall's, ToteVisions all use 800 x 600. Bringing costs down.

but! if you shoot 720p... knowing that it is about half the size of 1080p which sucks if you shoot to get projected on big festivals with big screens, but yet this is the sweet spot of the HVX and 720p is know to hold up quite nicely on medium screens: you then get a helpful but still very not-enough pixel count from only $550 plus the flip! most definitely a deal! however! if you can spend the $1200 you have a practically-there pixel count at 85.3% the pixels required to display 720p... I mean WTF... that is so close even Hollywood high class film buffs can't complain about the workflow that much

Again, it won't matter: it's still not enough to display the horizontal resolution. So it becomes pointless, IMO. It's just added expense when you'll get similar results to an 800 x 600 screen when dealing with the image itself. Also, if you're trying to get theater distribution, chances are you'll have the ability to monitor on the larger Gateway monitor in the first place.

I can't see doing 1080 to a 480 screen being any sort of problem, honestly.

THIS IS TOO TOUGH... I NEED A BEER

Get to it!

 

[Kholi]

OK did some quick comparisons with the marshal and my design. the image is FANTASTIC on my design.

Sick! Do we get pictures? I'd love to see it man!

definitely better than the marshal. I think its also brighter, but I don't want to say something without getting some sort of light meter on it.

Yeah, get it measured. It could be subjective. It could also have to do with amping up the brightness another level. Bright is good, either way. This is good to know!

The viewing angle is amazing also. The marshal is ok on 3 sides, but looking from the bottom which becomes the top once you flip it, the image fades pretty fast. on this one, the image is really good on all sides.

I think this is the second most important thing when choosing a monitor. You're right about the bottom becoming the top, and thus decreases the viewing angle from the "top" when flipping. However, does the Marshall have a built-in flipping mechanism? I have a monitor on the list that does this and has slightly better paper specs than the Marshall. Will post it up when I put up the TOP THREE LCD's post.

85 degrees on all sides is amazing. You've gone and gotten nearly the best possible Viewing angle there can be. Nice.

Now the bad parts:

it get a little more ghosting on 1080 as opposed to the marshall when you whip pan and there is a bright image with a dark area in the center of it. (I don't do much of this whiping so no big deal for me, and in 720 not noticeable)

The marshal had some ghosting also, but noticeable less.

Were both setups on the same shutter speed? I'm sure they were, just making sure. I can't really see why a screen with a better image produces much more ghosting. Then again, if you've built this piece-by-piece, it could be the decision in image processing.

Also the monitor has a blue mode, but I wasn't able to use it to calibrate when feeding the color bars. So I'll have to check on this.

This is one thing that the project won't have. Dunno how useful this is, but it'll definitely be a Marshall and Siniarch thing. =P

Other than that, I think its awesome. It will weigh more than the marshall, but then again the 8.4" panasonic weighs in somewhere around 4.4lbs without batteries. I think I'll keep mine under 4lbs. I think the marshall is 2.75lbs. Mine will be around 3.5lbs

hope this helps

That's quite a hefty package! When it's tripod mounted it should be okay. I think with batteries, component module, and screen on this one we're approaching 3.5lbs added weight. That's still pretty heavy for me and I've already set out to find better, smaller, lighter 12v rechargable batteries.


Pics, dude! And glad that it worked for you!

 

[USLatin]

ok... beer floating in my stomach... but just one so:

my personal situation makes the price tag an immense area of concern... but I am worried about getting a bigger screen to alleviate my eves and only go up to 18.5% the pixels from the 10% from the built-in for a bit more than half a grand... so this is a personal situation concern... yet I ask: If you didn't need the flip function, would you bother spending the cash? I mean out of purely focusing benefits... it it worth to buy in the 800 x 600 territory?


and Kholi, I believe you will be able to answer to all of us...

Anyone got $7,000 to spare? That's all I want right now then I can get Siniarch's LCD a secong P2, genny, Q6600 G0, secong video card a rubbermaid cart, better shotgun two bullet mics and upgrade to a 302 from my MixPre... can anyone spare that?

 

[Kholi]

One thing that I'd like to point out is the purpose here:

Which is to take advantage of technology to form something that works similar to at half the cost.

I do not feel that my solution will match a Marshall, beat a Marshall, etc. It's more like getting to an iKan level for hundreds less. Something that works GREAT for what you need and didn't cost you an arm and a leg.

Once you get to about the iKan price-point and aren't getting a significant amount more for your money, then you'd be better off purchasing something with a warranty, a brand name, resell value, etc.

I, personally, think that a savings of 200 is enough to justify the search efforts, semi-diy, and overall time spent putting together something like this.

 

[Kholi]

ok... beer floating in my stomach... but just one so:

my personal situation makes the price tag an immense area of concern... but I am worried about getting a bigger screen to alleviate my eves and only go up to 18.5% the pixels from the 10% from the built-in for a bit more than half a grand... so this is a personal situation concern... yet I ask: If you didn't need the flip function, would you bother spending the cash? I mean out of purely focusing benefits... it it worth to buy in the 800 x 600 territory?

YES. True: I would be less inclined to spend the money. Less provoked to get something like this but I'm sure down the road I would invest in it. From productions I've been on, it's always been a good thing to have one on-board monitoring solution. Be it for a director, or even asking a PA to move something out of frame. Half a grand doesn't just get you focusing, just like Half a grand for the 24" didn't just get you focusing.

You now have a secondary monitor for more than one person to look at instead of hobbling around one tiny LCD.

You have another method of focusing and framing.

You can look at a LARGER screen to cover your camera action. Really see where you're going and how well you're doing it.

I think 500 - 550 is reasonable. PERSONALLY, I don't think anything above 600 for a tiny LCD would be. I mean, I paid less than 600 for a 24" 1080P LCD. I can't justify anything more than 600 on something like that. I'm retarded.

and Kholi, I believe you will be able to answer to all of us...

xD Thanks for the Confidence Vote. Remember, i'm not the only one that has done this. I got information and a few "what to avoids" by reading other people's experiences. I'll take credit only for the research I'm passing on.

But, you know me... I'll grind at it til it's right. I reseated my HSF more than thirty times in search of great temperatures on air. I'll do this til I get something totally acceptable and approved by the masses.

 

[USLatin]

I know you are not trying to match the Marshall... I was just typing fast as usual... sorry if I inferred that and confused others, and I also meant that since you are testing the $550 level with different options and all, then you will have a great idea of what's the best for that investment level... I wish I had more cash right now and I'd be right there with you guys tinkering away...

I completely see the benefit of the bigger screen in helping not to step on any wondering Pomeranians... and I can also apreciate avoiding smaking my face into a telephone post...

I also think sharing a tiny LCD is anoying as stangers have to get into each others personal space...

I also strongly agree that after purchasing a 1080p 1:1 24" beauty of a monitor... getting anything for the same or more $ is just frustrating as crap to say the least... thats what we get from doing something that requires a million gadgets that only a few of us need... no benefits from large supplies...

We need a 1080p 8" LCD to be made for $1200, so like a huge Treo 650 screen where you get 300 x 300 in 1 and 3/4 by 1 and 3/4... and still display 16-bit color... the tech is there... but nobody will make one yet... so frustrating!!! if it isn't cheap enough for kids to buy them for their Civics then there is no money to be made...

Thanks to both of you as well as everyone else that cracks their head open figuring out stuff and then being so generous as to type it up and share it...

BTW, I ploped the little $7k list on michelles lap with a straight face... and she said that it was a good thing I wrote it down!!! so we know what's next!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol!!! am I lucky or what? well... now I still need the money...

so back in topik... can we put a fan on these and make them brighter? lol

 

[Kholi]

You wish LED fans worked. =P

On the 1080p LCD deal, I can't say why we haven't seen one. It might not be cost effective at this point. I mean, if we can have 480p 3" LCD's, then we could see a good 1080 in the next few years as demands call for such; you can thank the HD trends.

------ On the Lilliput

I went ahead and connected the monitor via Composite and I must say it's not bad at all. IN fact, it brings my hopes up for the VGA conversion via Component out. I couldn't quite get it sharp, but I bet it'll be nice.

I've got a top three monitors list going. If I can get my hands on this specific LCD soon here I'll report on that as well.

 

[siniarch]

Yeah Kholi, both setups were at the same shutter speed. Its a function of the controller card. Unlike the adapter that you are getting, this board has all the functions in one piece. So I think at the 1080 resolution the controller card doesn't refresh as fast. I will contact the Mnf. and see if there is a way to increase refresh rate.

All the inputs, and all the menu, etc... Has picture in picture. Side by side picture, and even the ability to upgrade it to a HD-SDI. flip, rotate, you can even zoom the image a little. and probably enough that you get true 1:1 at 720p (something I believe even the $4200 panny doesn't have, but I don't have one so I don't know)

So the beauty is that you can get one now for around $1200, but if you get a new camera 2yrs down the road, you can probably spend another $300-400 (who knows by then maybe even less) and get the HD-SDI input.

So its upgradable. That is something that is on my mind, since I can see every manufacturer phasing out RGB for HD, and moving to uncompressed HD-SDI.

As for pictures, the difference is so sharp, that I doubt you could see it by taking a picture. The best thing would be to see them next to eachother in person. Whenever the next HVX user meeting takes place, I hope to have a demo to show all those that attend.

 

[Kholi]

Yeah Kholi, both setups were at the same shutter speed. Its a function of the controller card. Unlike the adapter that you are getting, this board has all the functions in one piece. So I think at the 1080 resolution the controller card doesn't refresh as fast. I will contact the Mnf. and see if there is a way to increase refresh rate.

That's something I'm going to wish for! To have it all in one unit instead of having to add another piece. That also saves on the extra battery connection. I guess it's a trade-off, though. Kinda like shooting digital instead of film and vice versa.

All the inputs, and all the menu, etc... Has picture in picture. Side by side picture, and even the ability to upgrade it to a HD-SDI. flip, rotate, you can even zoom the image a little. and probably enough that you get true 1:1 at 720p (something I believe even the $4200 panny doesn't have, but I don't have one so I don't know)

Whoa. That's cool. I thought an actual 720p image was only possible if the device displaying as at leasst 1280 lines of horizontal resolution and 720 lines of vertical resolution to display. I didn't know you could zoom in and have 720p. Gotta let me see that!

So its upgradable. That is something that is on my mind, since I can see every manufacturer phasing out RGB for HD, and moving to uncompressed HD-SDI.

Do you mean all around? In consumer market? I don't think there's a benefit at all to HD-SDI over RGB when most peripherals don't display an uncompressed signal to begin with. I'm not sure I see the benefit for HD-SDI outside of the actual field of production, might not be a large enough sector to totally phase out readily available, cheaper RGB any time soon. But, I'm no Nostradamus!

As for pictures, the difference is so sharp, that I doubt you could see it by taking a picture. The best thing would be to see them next to eachother in person. Whenever the next HVX user meeting takes place, I hope to have a demo to show all those that attend.

Yeah, that's true. If you're meeting up with Matty again next week let me know. I'll bring my hackneyed ghetto setup to see if the 550 was truly worth it. We can probably get USLatin to join in as well?

 

[USLatin]

that would be spectacular Siniarch!

Hey Kholi, you should make a point to come over too... and bring your sissy computer so you can show us how you are funning that fruity OS on it...

then we'd get to see the difference between eh focusing capabilities between the $550 and $1200 marks... which is what I need to take a look at!


I am in! Michelle will have to come and supervise so I don't go swiping the card away with you guys on a rampage trip to Fry's lol

 

[Kholi]

that would be spectacular Siniarch!

Hey Kholi, you should make a point to come over too... and bring your sissy computer so you can show us how you are funning that fruity OS on it...

then we'd get to see the difference between eh focusing capabilities between the $550 and $1200 marks... which is what I need to take a look at!

Why you hatin? LoL. Fine, I'll bring my Hackintosh to the next DVXuser meeting. Show you how a real NLE works.

FINAL CUT STUDIO PLEASE>