do I really need a tc capable recorder?

Jeff Anderson

Jeff Anderson

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Here's my situation - I'd like to have (but probably dont have to have) an external recorder for use with my hvx and only my hvx. The HVX of couse is limited in its ability to do anything useful with timecode so - if I get a external recorder why should I care about TC? I'm not going to use a TC slate and will just be clapping each scene with a standard dry erase clapper. I figure if I free run the cameras time code to match the time of day I can get close enough to figure out which clip goes with which with the timestamp that something like the pmd-670 offers. Also any thoughts on the 670's pre-amps? I have heard not so great things, but I wont I be bypassing these if I go line in from my 302? My purpose for having sound seperate is a faster setup and giving my sound guy the ability to not be tethered to me. The possibly higher quality will just be a side benefit. Will also be nice if we have the need to pick up sound only. Thanks for any input guys!
 
You just described everything that went through my head when I bought a 671 for part of a sound kit. All that works for me... although the luxury in having free run TC on the HVX and free run TC on the recorder (such as an HDP2) is that you have a far more precise (but not JAMMED meaning EXACT) matched catalog of the day's takes. So it's debatable just how valuable TC is when there's not an actual JAMMED pairing... but imagine what it will be like if you want the audio from the middle of a long take. You can watch in the NLE and find what you want visually... but to make this job easy for audio means that you'll pretty much have to either start with the sound of the slate and the whole audio clip (and video clip)... or else you'll have to listen very carefully as you try to find the audio that matches the guide track (obviously you'll always use the cam mics or something else for guide track in a situation like this).

For the record... the 671 is much better then the 670... even if you only use it at 16/48 they put quite a few improvements in the 671. I did a gig in OKC at OCU for 5 weeks using an ENG kit with a 671 in it... and at the end of the gig I sold the 671 with a Kingston 4gb CF card for $500... which was like selling it for $450... so that should give you an idea of (perhaps) the best deal you could expect to find on one.

If you can double that budget then you might want to look at a new HDP2.
 
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Good point on the TC of the P2 - My budget is sub 1000 so the p2 fits in just fine, but I would love to save some money and spend half of that if its all I really need. What kind of improvements are there in the 671? All I can see from reading is the higher sampling rates which I dont really need and I've read about improvements to the preamps which I should be bypassing with the 302 right? I've read the thread on the hdp2 vs 671 and if I'm spending $1000 I would just go with the hdp2, just curious what you all thought about the lesser ones like the 670.
 
Again... I gotta' say that for the gig in OKC there were so many times when this wouldn't have been very easy to do... we did a lot of steadicam (I mean LOTS) and some 20' jib... then there were some days when we were trying to get 8 pages of script a day.

Basically once they saw that I had the means to record audio apart from them they jumped on it... all I head the whole time was "let's run mobile"... which, honestly, I didn't mind either way... but at the BEGINNING of the job I explained exactly what you just said Mike... that with modern cams you're not losing much in running the audio direct to the cam... but sooner or later you'll see what kind of priority a sound guy gets on a job.

If there's ANYTHING that a Director, AD, Producer, DP, etc... can come up with that makes your job harder, but their job easier... it won't matter... that is what's going to happen.

A recorder is a great thing to have... but once you have that I guarantee you'll be using it a lot... for better or for worse.

Ideally you would run audio to the cam and in the recorder... and sometimes this happens wireless from recorder to cam... this way you have the best of both worlds... if the audio is good enough over the wireless then you're done... audio in cam and sync'ed to video... but if there's a problem with the wireless (and there WILL be if you rely on G2 or less) then you have a MOSTLY decent guide track where some takes are flat out perfect... but you've also got a perfect recording just in case.

A separate recorder will always be a pain in the ass to an editor... and it varies for me... some days I hated having my recorder on hand because I knew they were pushing off responsibility for sake of saving time... and that later on they will be cussing ME for this choice (trust me the memory of events FADES FAST... and they will say "why didn't he SAY this?"... EVEN THOUGH I DID SAY IT CONSTANTLY)... so some days I love having a recorder and some days it annoys me because it can turn what should have been an easy edit into a hard one... but all things considered, I wouldn't dream of doing gigs without one on hand.
 
it is not very fun. I would go into cam whenever possible. I agree that some shots could benefit . I admire your drive and persistence
 
well luckily and unluckily for me I'll be cursing myself while I sync everything. The wireless is a good idea - i'll probably run one for safety's sake and to at least use up until I lock the picture. Would probably also aid in syncing the recorded sound right? Speed and versatility will be my goal with the documentary stuff. Even contemplating using only vidleds for lighting. just two or three on stands would be so nice to have during a sit down interview and would be so much easier than running cords all over people's houses that I havent scouted and wont get to.
 
I bought my HDP2 on ebay from Jim's Music Center (they are listed on Tascam's site as an authorized dealer in CA)... I got it for $815 delivered (including an extended warranty)... I don't see any on there right now from Jim's... but there are others for even less then I paid (not much less, but less)... Then I bought an 8gb CF card from newegg.com (the 266x transcend card) for $95... again, probably even less now.

So for probably about $900 or less... you'll be in business... plus you can get a used HDP2 and a 4gb CF card instead of 8gb... and be in for under $800 or maybe $700... although with the "price wars" on the HDP2 I'd probably go the new route.

I liked the form-factor and overall look and feel of the 671, but once you use both of them it's VERY obvious that the HDP2 is the best choice for an "affordable" recorder... I wouldn't have given that guy such a good deal on my 671 if this weren't true.

My .02
 
well we'll see if my drive and persistence is still around while we are in post :) I started out as an editor and have always enjoyed it so I'm hoping this will make it not seem so bad. Just getting into real audio post work though so it should be an interesting venture.
 
cool I didnt know about the "price wars" on the hdp2. I'll probably just start deal hunting and go that route then. The timecode and better sampling rates/bit depth sure wont hurt :) Decently easy to use out of a bag? Probably going to be an eargonizer-1 and harness.
 
I called it "price wars"... but I don't know if there's any risk of the current prices going away... personally I don't think the economy is all that great... even though the news says it's booming, but whatever. I shouldn't have said "price wars"...

Although if you weren't up on these facts you could pretty easily overpay by about $200 if you bought it from a Big and Huge store... I'm sure you could call Jim's and get that price over the phone... $789 plus ship (with extended warranty)... As I said, they're an authorized dealer, so no worries.
 
yeah I did all my price checking at a certain Big and Huge store (hey its got pretty pictures and is good for looking around at - I dont actually buy anything there :) ) Thats good to know, the 200 or so definitely makes it much more attractive and seem like a bargain I'd be stupid not to take :)
 
Yes I agree... but now I have to post again to say that I DO buy a fair bit from that other place as well. It just happens that this time it's not a good idea.

Normally I shop local first, pro shops second, and Big and Huge third. They still get a fair chunk of my yearly income... and I do appreciate their excellent site.
 
Yeah I dont "not buy anything" there but I just try to avoid it. too many shipping mishaps and too many problems. Sometimes its just too darned convenient. And occasionally the best price. Wish we had more local places to shop in oklahoma.
 
OK everyone knows I'm a big defender of the Marantz, but buy the Tascam. For what I do it's not a big difference, but production I don't think there is much competition.
I'm also not big on TC, but again if you can get it get it.

The specifics are that TC in post is poss sometimes helpful. On a full blown audio post it's more helpful than on a low budget post. Mostly because of being able to read and do something with it. In DAT days there was a lot of "you have to have TC" but who actually used it? THe SZ Film Center had one TC DAT Deck. Skywalker Ranch had one TC DAT deck. If your budget allowed you to have your DAT transfered at $160/ hr then it was very useful, for the rest of us it was mostly a problem because once folks had "TC" they would blow off the slates.
Zoom to today. With the WAV files and such the file doesn't have continuous TC on it, it has a start time stamped on it. It's not like you can jump to a spot in the file by specifying a TC in and out. You have to drop it on the time line and locate it to it's start time. Some of this might be automated to some extent in NLE's but not with out add on software in DAW's. So it's sort of useful, but not drastically better than time of day on a low budget post.

The other catch is most if not all NLE's are limited to full frame increments when moving clips. This is fine for images since less that a full frame is meaningless but is way too crude to sync sound.

What that all translates to is that it is a big pain and not so great to have the picture editor try and sync sound recorded on an external recorder. It is still a very good idea to record it, but try not to depend on using it much. If you can do a full blown post, and that means that this is the sound editors (as in more than one) day job for quite a few weeks then you can look at replacing all or most of the camera tracks with the "better" recordings. I say "better" because a lot of the cameras today record very well if you feed them a good signal from a mixer so there is likely no reason to replace many of the tracks.

Short story, buy the Tascam it's better for your needs and will fit them longer. TC is useful to get on the file even if you don't nec. need it.

Another reason to go with the Tascam VS the Marantz is that the Marantz (at least my 671) stamps the file date in the modified field not the creation field. So you need to do a little file date field swap before you do anything to the file or you lose the creation info. This may be something to do with a FAT 32 to Mac translation issue?? But it sucks if it catches you by surprise and would be a not so great "feature" for production recording.
 
What everyone else said and more.

I have been involved in two shoots now where having TC made a difference - but it included using a TC slate in the mix. In both cases, things were delivered poorly to the editor, and they had a terrible time figuring out what went with what. Having visible TC on the start of each take helped both of them find the right files.

As far as it being a PITA, guess what...everything being shot on film has to be synched in post, so suck it up, hire an intern and let them synch everything. :-)

Phil
 
crap I think I am my own intern... will defnitely be sucking it up and doing some intern level work but thats what night time is for. I'm doing all the sync in pro tools so i shouldnt have any problems (other than it being boring and tedious) lining it all up. I think after these posts I will be going with the tascam unless a really really cheap used 671 pops up. I'm hoping that I'll be at an advantage since I'll be the only one working in post, there shouldnt be a lack of communication and by go-time I'll have my workflow figured out. We'll probably jump in on the next dvxuserfest to test the workflow out.

anyone with thoughts on the 670 vs 671 one though in case a dirt cheap used 670 comes up? if I could get one at say 400 or so I'd be tempted to save some money.
 
A new 670 is $600 and a new 671 is $1K... if you can get a deal like I gave that kid from OKC then I'd try to get a 671... but if it's not obvious enough... I'd probably suck it up and pay the extra for the HDP2. Of course I know... the list is endless... you can only "suck it up" so many times before you're broke... so whatever... I actually LOVED my 671... and I sort of accept my HDP2... but I don't have the love for it that I had for my 671... I think it's just familiarity with the 671... I don't know... the HDP2 looks clunky to me... but it has too many valuable functions for a video guy to ignore.

Plus... with EITHER the 670 or 671 there is a night and day difference between running it with a mixer front end for pre versus running a mic in directly... the HDP2 still sounds great even without a pre running line in. Yeah you might not have the dynamic range that putting an SD mixer out front will give you... but you can at least get by for the time being... either marantz has about a 20db difference in noise via line in over mic in... something else to chew on.
 
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