Dat Recoders For Production -Low to High

B

Bruce Morgan

Well-known member
Hello
I have been advised by a very good post production house to stop by old double systems recording methods and be pound wise instead of penny wise .
I have been using a nagra 3 for eons with my bnc studio camera for sync sound sections of my films.
Questions
1) What is the delivery format for sumbitting sound on dat these days when asking post houses to sync production material ie 35mm and dat sound with time code .
Mind you the BNC is running on Crystal sync and has no time code technology .
2) What would anyone suggest for an affordable dat recorder for purchase ?
3) is it possible to use the dvx as a dat recorder with slate head and tail with the bnc ?
4) If i continue (out of economic need to use my old double system BNC MITCHEEL WITH crystal controll and Naga 3 with crystal - THEN
Question
Is my only issue to apply resolver device to controll playback during my home pc via nle software transferr to dat recorder?

I have a feeling that my panasonic 2500 mini dv deck could provide the post house with a deliverable which they can use with my sync sound scenes .
Any and all advise is appreciated
Thanks
Bruce :dankk2:
 
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you can buy good non lenear recorder which records to cf or other media.
all of them would be good for short takes till 11 minutes to stay in sync without external reference .
you dont need tc as it doesnt help you
check fostex fr2 le or similar .
in the end of the day you can uploqad the files dyrectly to your computer
the only isue is if you are running 24 you will need slow down the sound for 0.01 % or use 0.01 higher bit rate 40.048 then import the stuff at 48 to get sync .
not every recorder have 40.048 so the slow down method would be the way .
also check fr-2 regullar , they do come on e bay for relevantly cheap , good preamps . tascam hd2
about mini dv deck - it is possible you will need good preamp in front but then you will need to to speed up your recording to match the telecine by 0.01 % ( of course that is nessery if the camera doesnt make 23.98)
 
Thanks
Oleg !
Great advice -
Now I feel like I have a chance with my good old equipment .
I dont want to buy New Film cameras for Sync sound just include meta data or time code .
Thanks '
Again
Bruce
 
There is Hope for my ancient system!!!

There is Hope for my ancient system!!!

:thumbup:Thanks
Oleg !
Great advice -
Now I feel like I have a chance with my good old equipment .
I dont want to buy New Film cameras for Sync sound just include meta data or time code .
Thanks '
Again
Bruce:beer:
 
bruce my first paragrph is that you do slow down for ntsc or 23.98 hd
if you run 24 and do pal telecine then film composer 24
or doing ntsc and then expand to real 24 , you dont need slow down
check double what i adwise as iam in pal lend and we dont have these kind of troubles :-)
 
you can use the dvx , its no different then any other recorder in it behaivier
about nagra resolving - better ask on ramps , i didnt used nagra for last 14 years :-)
 
Check with your lab or post house to see what format they prefer for the sound rolls. Ten years ago many labs were only equipped to deal with DAT tapes and Nagra reels, but the proliferation of innexpensive high-quality non-linear recorders has forced them to become much more format-flexible.

Some labs will accept CF cards or removable drives, while others prefer CD-R or DVD-R discs. Either way, contact them ahead of time to be sure. Most non-linear recorders record to Broadcast WAV files, which can be timecode-stamped by certain recorders.

As for the DAT vs. non-linear recorder; for the price of a used Tascam DA-P1 (non-timecode portable DAT), you can probably get a brand new HD-P2 (which has timecode).

If you're synching your footage yourself, remember that whether you shoot on DAT or a non-linear recorder, you'll have to pull-down the audio sample rate by 0.1% to match the speed change from film (24 fps for the picture, 30fps for the audio) to NTSC video (29.97 fps).
 
usially only these who work with endow would acsept something that isnt dvd ram dvd r or cd - and better check what exactly fostex(dv-40) in that facility can read when you send the files .also check how much they charge you to make dvd if you send something else , as it quit eacy to sync it on nle with stuff which comes mute from telecine .
hdp-2 donot have tc generator - i will never concider this recorder as normal one .
dap1 could b efound for 300 usd used if you like i have agood friend in NY who has one for sale in exellent shape .

the last paragraph - you can shoot what ever tc you want and only increase the sampling rate then import it in lower sample rate and be in sync .
of course if it true 24 project you can import the project as 24 form ( 23 .98) and the audio will be in sync without pull down ( then you do 40kh and not 48.048)
by the way S Mure for him tc is waist of money
 
A post $.02. If your happy with your workflow and your not having problems with getting transfers I would not change it. There is nothing "wrong" with a Nagra. If you do change I would stay away from DAT. It was a revolution when it came in but that time is over. I don't believe anyone still makes DAT machines. DAT tapes are likely to get pretty scarce in the next few years as the last of them go out of regular service and there were a fair number of headaches working with DAT's. DAT is deader than your Nagra. Nagras are still used for some FX recordings because they handle things like shots and explosions better than digital recorders (though that is or has changed with the latest breed). DAT decks sometimes "eat" your tape, you can get dropouts, some DAT decks don't like tapes recorded on others (Sony is very bad that way), your limited to 16 bit. Add to that any repair to a DAT machine will be almost impossible to get done these days, parts aren't even available for many of the decks.

My personal experience with the DAP1 was very bad. I worked with five different decks owned by different people and none of them were trouble free. I also worked with the HHB (sort of an industry standard for awhile). It was pretty solid but I found a glitch, thought I had done something very stupid till a more experienced recordist told me it was an issue and I wasn't the first, where if for any reason the tape got past the recorded area (say your adding to a tape - typical for FX- that had earlier tracks already transfered and the tape ended up parked just beyond the recorded area) the recorder would act like it was recording but actually wasn't. Very serious bad news. I've also worked with ten or fifteen other decks most are fine most of the time but...

HD and Flash recorders have been essentially trouble free. Had a Nagra V shutdown because of excessive low end but I was recording about 15 feet off the end of an F-15 warming up so... It was LOUD!

Your working in film so like Oleg said TC is a waste for you and your takes are not going to be so long that you will need external sync. If your posting in a 24 frame project (real 24 frame not 23.98 video) then you don't have to worry about pull downs. If you posting at video speed then you will have to pull down the audio or do a speed change. Anyone who does audio post for a living will not have a problem accomplishing that. Exactly how you do it depends on what you want to end up at. If your cutting on video but you are going to go back to film then you want to use a DAW like Pro Tools and work with a pulled down session. If you going to stay in video then I would speed shift the audio so it lives at 48 and plays in sync. Neither is a big deal to do, but you need to know your post flow or it can bite you in the rear.

Oh, another opinion, I hated working with the FR2. No knock on quality I just didn't like working with it at all. The Nagra V is nice but costs too much and weighs a ton (well as much as you Nagra). I like the Marantz PMD671, I have heard good things about the Tascam HD P-2 from owners I know, I found the Sound Devices a bit hard to use, a little too small to get my klunky fingers around - but it sounds great and the have fantastic support. I just wish they had made it closer to the size of the DAP1. I have also got very positive comments (from a very picky sound person) on the ZOOM H4.
 
You Guys Are Great thanks !
Ill work this out with my nagras as is then resolve and transferr to either pc or digital recorder (choice on this is the next big step )
And do a major set of tests before I committ to a work flow
 
Noiz2 said:
I have also got very positive comments (from a very picky sound person) on the ZOOM H4.
Click to expand...

I've got one and use it more than I thought I would when I got it. It is a pretty impressive little unit for the price, but it does have some drawbacks. Its four track mode is pretty worthless, and while mic emulation is cool, it really isn't very handy. Its controls and switches leave a little to be desired, with only Low, Medium, and High settings for each line in (you can up the recording levels through the menu, though I've found that makes the recording sound "pushed") and its lack of mono only recording is a bit of a pain.

BUT:

It supports up to 24/96, fits in your pocket, has surprisingly capable onboard mics, can take a 2 gig card and record for hours, will phantom power a +48 mic for a couple of hours on two AA batteries, and even has a compressor and limiter. And it is QUIET. I'm amazed even with the mic input settings on High, with a mic (in my case usually an MK012 and a Perception 200 for VO) the noise floor is usually around -55 dB. And that is not even in the most ideal settings. plus, it also acts as an ASIO USB mic input to your computer for direct recording purposes. And it is as easy to get your files as it is to get them from a digital camera.

And it's only 250 clams. I'm glad I bought it, and it also looks like a stun gun, which has brought me some enjoyment on location more than once.
 
Great suggestion Matt!
This type of small cost effective device is just what i need .
Where would you suggest i look on line for a purchase?
Thanks
Bruce
 
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