Couple of (Maybe Simple) Filming Questions

S

Sleeves

Member
Hey everyone. As this is my first post, let me first say that my name is Kevin. I am 14 and have recently gotten into filmmaking...On to the questions:

1. In Pirates 3 (and countless other movies, I just happened to see Pirates this afternoon), there is a shot of a jail cell. The camera is filming through the bars. The camera then circles around the subject, but in doing that, it actually passes through the bars. There is no opening for which the camera to go through. How is this done? Are the bars CG?

2. Also in Pirates (once again, countless other movies), there are a lot of scenes where it is raining. How can they have it raining without the camera getting wet? Do they have rain set up far enough away from the camera that it doesn't get wet and then add a rain effect in post?

I've got more, just can't think of any at the moment.

Thanks.
-Kevin

EDIT: Keep reading, there's more later in the thread.
 
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1. I haven't seen POTC3 yet, but there a few ways that would be common to the bars move you're talking about. First would be to simply have the set "wild out" as the camera passes close to or through them. Simply put, they would have a breakaway wall or invisible doorway that the camera passes through. Grips or carpenters would move these elements in a coordinated move that doesn't show up in the shot - just like they're opening a door for the operator.

Another option is that the bars or a portion of the bars are CG, though most filmmakers might likely try to do it as described above unless there is a very complicated move that conventional equipment couldn't otherwise accomplish.

2. Cameras are quite often taken right out into very wet conditions for rain effects. Whenever possible, they're under what can be very elaborate canopy systems and employ spray deflectors to keep the water droplets from accumulating in front of the lens, which is typically protected inside a waterproof housing.

There's a very cool image of Sir David Lean (who you should research if you want to get into filmmaking, btw) with an early Panavision deflector on a hilltop for what I think might've been Ryan's Daughter.

Anyway, short answer is that it is / was very common for rain to be done as an in-camera analog effect.

e
 
Kevin,
I think it is great that you allow yourself to be awed by the technical aspects of filmmaking. Unfortunately, too many filmmakers are cynics and aren't impressed or don't care - figuring that they can always hire the people that do know. I won't pretend to have the correct answers, only some possible solutions that have been used with success - others will post many more, I am sure. Often walls are built "wild" so that they can be "flown away" either during or between takes to allow the camera to move into a room or from room to room. This is often used to enter a room through a window. But your suggestion of CG for the bars of the cell is terrific and if it wasn't done that way, should have been done that way! The rain is much easier. I've done many rain shots myself and the rig is hooked up to the nearest hydrant (with the assistance of the city or fire department, who also install a water meter to track the amount of water you use). Then the camera is covered by tarp and plastic (and the camera crew, as well, if they are lucky) and the water is turned on and piped up and through sprinklers rigged overhead, either by the grip department or right off of a hook and ladder truck. Yep - it's that straight forward. There is a special lens whose front element spins to keep drops from adhering to the front of the lens, ruining the shot. I think Speilberg first used this lens in the making of JAWS with all of the water photography. This is a great forum and you will get other ways to execute the same shot, as well.
 
Thanks, guys. In POTC3, there's no way that the cell walls were wild. The camera looked as if it passed right through it (you could see a bar right in front of the camera), so it was probably CG.

Here's another question: **Possible POTC3 Spoiler**

Also in Pirates, there's a scene where there are about 10 Jacks. I know that this is done with compositing, but that seems like a tremendous amount of post work. Is there any other way it could have been done? Also, one Jack stabs another (with the other 8 in the background). None of them are doubles because you can see their faces, how would you composite that?
 
Sleeves, I've remember that scene. This is just a guess, but it's possible to have doubles for actors and to digitally replace their faces (with Depp filming on a green screen later for the other characters). This was done in Titanic for some stunts that were too dangerous for the actors, but with the advances today it wouldn't seem that hard (especially considering the budget this movie had).
Or possibly Depp called upon his own personal army of clones for help.
 
Yes, doubles is definitely a possibility with face replacement, Lord of the Rings used it a lot to replace the scale doubles faces with the actors actual face.

And when you say it seems like a tremendous amount of post work, well yes, thats what it takes a lot of the time, in this day and age it seems like no effect is too big for visual effects you'd be surprised at what they can do, even though it is as you say a 'tremendous' amount of work.
 
That's pretty cool.

On the topic of Pirates, I was disappointed with something in the first scene. If you've seen it, you know what I mean. There's a kid at the gallows. At the end of the scene, it's obvious that he has braces on (in the 1800s, I'm assuming). How could they not see that either when filming or in post? It was extremely obvious.

EDIT: Also, about the doubles, it was Depp and Tony Angelotti. It's amazing how similar they look. Here's both of them side by side: http://www.talgov.com/parks/images/biaimages/bia3-3.jpg.
 
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Passing through Jail Bars, Doors, Windows.

Passing through Jail Bars, Doors, Windows.

I would love to answer this for you.

I'm sure you have seen other examples of this in other films. Cameras passing through windows, bars, etc.

This is done by shooting the scene WITHOUT the bars or window actualy there.
They are added in later in Post.

There was another film I can't think of the name...Where the cemera did a complete 360 around a room passing through doors, and broken windows.
The set actualy didn't have any doors or windows. They added them in later in post production.
 
Rain: Actually, more often then not, they use real rain makers. In fact, they just finished shooting a film here in Oregon called "Untraceable" where I saw them setup a rain system on a bridge. The one time it DOESN'T RAIN in Oregon they need a rain scene. Go figure.
There are many ways to shoot in Rain. Cover the cameras, or place the camera just out of range from the rain. Some times they will add more rain in post to spice up the real rain.

It's not hard to keep rain off the cameras and lenses with all the gear they for "wet shoots."

town_flood_raincrane.jpg
 
BergVision said:
I would love to answer this for you.

I'm sure you have seen other examples of this in other films. Cameras passing through windows, bars, etc.

This is done by shooting the scene WITHOUT the bars or window actualy there.
They are added in later in Post.

There was another film I can't think of the name...Where the cemera did a complete 360 around a room passing through doors, and broken windows.
The set actualy didn't have any doors or windows. They added them in later in post production.
Click to expand...
I would really like to see that. If you find out what it is, please tell me.

-Kevin
 
Here's two more questions for ya:

1. I'm shooting in interlaced 29.97fps NTSC. Is there a free (keyword 'free') way to make it look like film or convert it to 24p? I found a free plugin for Final Cut Pro and it works...alright, but I would like something better.

2. Can someone explain pulldown? I've read some stuff about what it is, but I'm still totally lost. If you can, please explain it in as much English as possible. :laugh:

-Kevin
 
Sleeves,

Both Barry Green's book and the Panasonic HVX200 manual do a very good job of explaining pull-down, native framerates and so on. The pulldown illustration does a much better job of it than hundreds of words can!

e
 
BergVision said:
There was another film I can't think of the name...Where the cemera did a complete 360 around a room passing through doors, and broken windows.
The set actualy didn't have any doors or windows. They added them in later in post production.
Click to expand...

It was Bad Boys II. They have a special feature on the DVD about how they did it. It's pretty cool, because they didn't only have the doors and windows be CG, but also other elements of the room so they could fly through them as well.

...and everyone thinks Michael Bay is useless.

-DES
 
Is there any way for me to get just that one section from the Barry Green book? I don't want to pay $70 for it.

Thanks overlandfilms.
And DeadEyesSmiling, I'll check out that movie.
 
Sleeves said:
There is no opening for which the camera to go through. How is this done? Are the bars CG?
Click to expand...

for a good example of a similar shot watch the behind the scenes on baz luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet on how they shot the elevator sequence, it's very cool
 
By the way it is possible to composite all the Jonny's. All they have to do is film each one in front of a green screen and layer them and then add the digital background, or film one with a real back ground, the rest with the greenscreen with a foreground added, and then combine them. It's actually quite simple.
 
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