How much did you sell your movie for?

The movie was pretty good - not great but I have seen far worse movies on the shelves of Blockbuster than this one (Dark Harvest 2 for example). I do have to say that the exec and other producers did not do the best of jobs trying to get distribution, but since I was not part of that process, I did not have the full insight into their strategy.

The film has played at several small festivals, won awards of different types, and got fairly good reviews.

Now breaking even is an interesting thing - breaking even on the $650K before deferments are paid out or after? If after, then maybe I got a chance at getting the $59K of services as editor, post super, final online and color correction I did in HD which was not part of that original budget. Like most independent productions, most of the budget is spent before they get into post. I know that the other producers, and some of the actors are on deferment (SAG issues pending there) that breaking even is not a business - the investors don't invest to break even (and yes, they know this going in) but it was not a well laid out plan to keep those same investors going for the next round.

The real point I was trying to make using this film as an example is that self distribution relies entirely on your own marketing budget and that for the most part, consumers are not conditioned to go to CustomFlix or Amazon Unbox yet to get their entertainment. They did all the classic things - web page, presence on MySpasce and YouTube, etc. There are only so many hours in a day and only so much disposal income any one individual has - taking a risk on a film you don't know anything about versus one that is marketed (and had a theatrical run of some kind) is what drives the numbers into a profitable title. Even if it is a profit factor of 2x.

Not there are exceptions and I am not trying to be gloom and doom, but stressing the importance of keeping budget for marketing and having a strategy for distribution - whatever those channels may be. My production company is finishing up its first feature and we are making sure that we do have this in place before going to market. Doesn't mean it's going to sell, but it certainly reduces the risks of it not being sold. But breaking even on our budget won't pay the bills or allow us to make a living at it -

Michael
 
craigbowman said:
You should have told them about that before.

For some teensy weensy little reason I don't think they would believe you any more.
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huh, what u talking about?

i havent made anything to sell. Im wondering for the future.
 
Thanks Michael....very good insight. had you guys ever thought of a film market? AFM or something like it? If the movie is pretty good, I still feel there MUST be some way to get at least some of the investment back. I kind of see customflix as a last resort. Have you guys tried cable companies?
 
Distribution is VERY easy, even if you have a crappy movie. There are a ton of b-rate crap distributors now. That being said, it is almost impossible to make money. Those type of deals give you a % after you recoup expenses (advertising, printing, etc.) but you almost never recoup. The other way that many bigger companies work, is an advance on royalties. Same thing here, the advance is generally pretty small and you almost NEVER get any royalty checks as every single phone call, meal, etc. gets put on your recoup tab. There are a million other "deals" out there but they are generally reserved for movies in the $500K and up range. It is extremely rare for people to actually get paid in production and make their money back. Most low-budget films that make more than their production budget do so because many people were working for free or for cheap.

Dont get discouraged, just make your movie and hope for the best, you never know.



ash =o)
 
I'm with the first question. I understand some people not wanting to share that info, but it's like I understand why my dad doesn't want to share his salary. It was a bigger deal back then than it is now.

Plus, I would think that knowing an estimate of what people spent/made would help keep people from biting off more than they can chew, and inspire others to tackle projects that they might have previously thought too ambitious.

Not to mention, if I get asked to do a commercial, I would love to find out what other people are charging for how much work/talent/time so I don't overcharge and loose a bid, or undercharge and loose the pay!

Then there are the books that try and explain what percentage of what type should be spent in what instance etc. but finding out that Joe Somebody spent 5k on talent with a 20k budget could actually teach something; just like if someone said they spent 15k on talent with a 20k budget, they could point out it might not be such a good idea.

Also, you could use the info to gauge how you are doing with your personal progress. Are people making 5% on their first short, 8% on their first doc, 10% on their first feature. Then I could know I'm doing good on my first short if I make 6%, or i could sell/market for a little more if I made 2%, or maybe I was spending money on gear when I should have been spending time on a story.

Sorry for the book, but to be totally honest, I like Dean Shaw being totally honest.

JF
 
Taking things off on a bit of a tangent, has anyone ever tried a territory by territory self-distribution plan? You know, like a video rights sale to Japan, a TV rights sale to Germany, etc, etc.?
 
While starting off in Hollywood (I'm from the UK originally), I worked as a re-recording engineer (final mixer) in a small indie house and between the start of the year and this time (early June, let's call it) every year for four or five years, I must have mixed maybe 60 to 70 movies per year.

Over those movies, I only met the directors in around a dozen films. Only a handful of films actually had any decent budget (more than ten thousand) left in hand after I'd done my job (which at that time was the final mix, optical transfer, timing, checkprint, screening and exhibition/show prints).

I guess it's no surprise to know that only those films had any kind of a decent premiere and opening, any interest (other than a kind of beaten-down underdog kind of desperation) in the film from its makers, and, consequently, any kind of sale at all.

Sure, you'll have seen most of the movies out, in one form or another, at your local video store or on cable somewhere. But I'm fairly certain that only those shows that were still firmly funded by committed producers after the film was produced actually made it to theatrical release and into the black.

This is a marathon, people, not a sprint. Even if one takes time off to recoup one's breath and resources after one has finished production, the film won't yield profit without a ton more effort (and harder, because there's no crew to help, no set strategy for success), and a lot more commitment, enthusiasm and money being invested into it to help it gain its legs.

I guess this is where most people fall short. Certainly most of the ones I worked for. They think that making movies is spending money. Which it is, in a way.

But making a Rolls Royce is also spending money. After you've made one, you still have to make the showcase to sell it, and the brochures, and the test drives, and the unveiling for the reviews...
 
You will find most people, I would guess 99% that finish a low/no budget project be it a doc, a short, etc. make no money in the end. To break even is super-rare. Most "film makers" have day jobs, many in the industry but also many in unrelated fields. The number of people solely making their living on narrative or even doc work is TINY.

I agree that it is a very slow marathon. I would say just making something watchable is hurdle 1, after that, try to make something cheap that actually breaks even. If you manage that, you are well on your way.



ash =o)
 
Thing is, a lot of distributors, sales agents and other people who actually do make money at selling movies are probably contributing to the general gloom and doom, because in the end they're the ones marking the product up and controlling the profit margins and disbursements, and obviously they're not talking.
That would be like the guy who loves the Rolls Royce walking into the dealership with an open check book.
Ain't gonna happen, not if the guy wants to stay rich.

Don't forget. Someone, somewhere has a job and that job is to put bums on seats, as it's affectionately referred to where I come from. Or eyes on TV sets, or web channels, whatever.
They actually have to pay to put good stuff on air somewhere, otherwise we'd never see anything at the theaters or on TV.
It's no secret that it's lucrative. So why would anybody want to pass the wealth around to people just for the fun of it?

No, you have to stick around, constantly and consistently turn out top notch product at a reasonable cost (markup potential, as far as they're concerned) and not go away.

It'll take around three years or just over three movies to "get noticed", as a loose guide. Then it depends on "noticed" by whom, and what you do about it.

Or else you start working as a gun for hire, working as a PA, anything to pay the rent, and run the marathon that way.

And after you've run that long and hard road, and some kid who hasn't even gotten his hands dirty asks you to give him all your contacts and tell him how your income is made, and how much, what would you say?
 
Perhaps you should take your questions over to IndieClub to talk with Darlene Cysper of Inferno Films. Darlene is representing a few IndieClubbers in trying to get their films sold, and she'll tell you the "real deal" that's actually going on out there.

I know of people who've gotten a few individual territory sales on a modest-budget level (film budget under $30,000); a sale to China or Thailand or whatever might end up being worth a thousand or two thousand dollars (minus foreign sales agent's commission, usually).
 
I do remember a comedy indie feature called 'Counseling Day'. It was shot on film, on a budget of $21,600. Self-distribution via the Internet and selling copies on Ebay. Last I heard (about a year or so ago) they'd made almost $20,000 back so far going that route. If they'd shot on DV instead of film, they would probably be in profit territory by now.

According to the producer, it seems most of their sales came because of the 3-hour 'Making of...' documentary that was included on the DVD. Something to think about.
 
I would ask yourself this simple question. Do you want to make a movie? or do you want to make a living?

If your goal is to make a living in the industry an Indie Feature is probably a bad move. If you can make your living and put together a finished Indie feature then you are blessed, and you got to create some art that you are proud of that hopefully a large audience will see.
 
You think people make indie features so they can LOSE money? Just because you're making an indie doesn't mean you don't plan to turn a profit off of it and pay yourself and others - in fact, if that's not the case, I'm not sure how you landed the financing in the first place.
 
I'm with Jason. The most valuable thing about finishing a low budget feature is the cache of finishing a feature. I work in commercials (my day job), but managed to cobble together a little feature with my DVX. In meetings and on sets, my standing sky rocketed based on that little film. It is evident that many people say "I'm going to", but the members of the "I did it" club are much fewer. I funded it myself (through my day job, as Jason suggests) because I knew that the chances of it making money without name actors was pretty thin and I certianly didn't want the strain of owing money to friends and family. My goal is to not spend my time raising money; my goal is to shoot and edit, then move on (and, hopefully, up).
 
I saw this thread today for the first time, and I'm glad somebody brought it back. It's an important subject.

I read the whole thread; nobody said anything about selling their movie.

I have to assume nobody got any money for their movie ... if they sold their feature film.

I know many people have made feature films, and I'm assuming some of the people who replied to this thread have.

It's possible that nobody got their money back. And there were plenty of remarks that were realistic. It's nearly impossible to get money from distributors these days.

In fact are there any distributors out there who are paying upfront money? I'd like to hear one of them say, "I'm a distributor and I've paid $10,000 advance on this movie."

It costs money to market, and indie filmmakers usually don't have any money for marketing. But even if they did, it's still hard to market a movie.

There is one way for independents to make money, and that is by banding together in a sales company and sharing expenses.

But in the last ten years that I've called for sales companies for independents, no one has joined me to do it. I have films, and if I can find two or three filmmakers who will join me, we can all make money, because we can each put up about $5000 and together we can market our movies. For one thing we'll have ten or twenty films together, and that's important, because buyers don't buy from a film producer with one or two films.

So the answer is, if you want to make money, first figure out how you will sell the movie? Who will buy your movie?

If you don't know, don't spend any money on making a movie. Do it for nothing, using video and friends as actors.

The exceptions are there, and I've heard about them too. George Lucas got $1 billion for advertising from Coke Cola before the last Star Wars was even released. So, yeah, there are exceptions :-)
 
filmman said:
I saw this thread today for the first time, and I'm glad somebody brought it back. It's an important subject.

I read the whole thread; nobody said anything about selling their movie.

I have to assume nobody got any money for their movie ... if they sold their feature film.
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People sell all the time. I sold. I tried a thread like this a while back and nobody responded. People don't like giving up their sell prices, if they got anything. I've PM'ed people and had them to PM me.

Most of the DV Stuff with okay to bad production value in specialized genres are selling for anything from $10K to $40K.

filmman said:
I know many people have made feature films, and I'm assuming some of the people who replied to this thread have.

It's possible that nobody got their money back. And there were plenty of remarks that were realistic. It's nearly impossible to get money from distributors these days.

In fact are there any distributors out there who are paying upfront money? I'd like to hear one of them say, "I'm a distributor and I've paid $10,000 advance on this movie."
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Most of the ones I've run into give you a quick amount for certain rights, usually straight to DVD Only. So there are those that give you money, question is do people want to sell for what they are getting?

It's like what if you make a movie for $50K and get an offer for $40K do you take it? Usually you only get one chance to say yes or no. Something to think about when you get an offer.

filmman said:
It costs money to market, and indie filmmakers usually don't have any money for marketing. But even if they did, it's still hard to market a movie.
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Don't listen to distributor's lies. Most of them market new movies by putting trailers in other movies that they have aquired. I mean when was the last time you saw a trailer for some off-beat mini-dv/HDV movie on TV? They have to pay for the marketing materials to be created, and for whoever makes the poster and the DVD authoring. After that, that's pretty much it. My distributor made me pay for the "errors" in my movie. So I had to pay for additonal audio work and lighting adjustment.

I had a friend who didn't use Gels to color correct their movie. They lost almost 80% of the money because the distibution company went back and re-color corrected all the scenes. So don't let these companies fool you.

There are two kinds of distributors. Those who are more on the level, big names with big money like Warner Bros and Paramount and then there's everybody else. The smaller companies make money by sucking young artists dry.

filmman said:
There is one way for independents to make money, and that is by banding together in a sales company and sharing expenses.

But in the last ten years that I've called for sales companies for independents, no one has joined me to do it. I have films, and if I can find two or three filmmakers who will join me, we can all make money, because we can each put up about $5000 and together we can market our movies. For one thing we'll have ten or twenty films together, and that's important, because buyers don't buy from a film producer with one or two films.

So the answer is, if you want to make money, first figure out how you will sell the movie? Who will buy your movie?

If you don't know, don't spend any money on making a movie. Do it for nothing, using video and friends as actors.
Click to expand...

Part of what you are saying is what I'm working on now in Atlanta. A little different approach though. But I don't believe people will just buy movies because you're selling in bulk. And if you sell in bulk, sell to who another distributor or directly to Blockbuster/ Hollywood Video. If you can't sell direct, it's not worth your time.

The problem to me is the same problem hollywood is having. People aren't honest with themselves. They need to look at their movie and figure out if it's good or not. I've said it before, 95% of what's out there is bad, it's just bad. That's why less than 5% gets picked up, because less than 5% is actually good. I'm now uber suprised my last movie was picked up, and for those who have seen it, they can probably testify to that. But I kept it cheap and was lucky to be in a genre niche market.

To be honest, and I love my fellow DVX'ers, but most of the stuff people have created is just bad. Even if the tech is good, the story or acting sucks. And we don't want to admit it because it's our dream. And we don't want to bash others because if it's better than our stuff, so how can we complain. But everytime I watch a scene from my latest movie, I don't beam with pride. I look and say "Dang, that could've been better."

Without a constant push to be the best, better than the best and the knowledge to know when your $5K, $25K or $250K movie is bad, what do you expect but people to go around in circles over distribution. If I was a distribution company, from the movies I've seen in the indie world, heck I'd pick up less than 2%!
 
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