Ikan v8000 HD on-camera monitor: first impressions
- Thread starter bvalente
- Start date
235 Studios
Veteran
Interesting - that seems very odd that an ND filter could effect the monitor like that ... oh well, doesn't seem like that big of a deal. 
Tim Naylor
Veteran
What you'll really kick yourself for is having a monitor that is difficult to calibrate, has a lesser pic quality, finicky blue burst adjustment, no quick external adjustment, more narrow viewing angle and re-sets itself. These aspects pointed out in the review are enough to have me running scared. One can hope that the manufacturer makes amends but I had a similar experience with the SWIT HD LCD distributed by Varizoom. Looks almost the same as the Ikan (without the component out). I quickly returned for many of the shortcomings sighted in the Ikan. Also, if you plan to use it on a feature or for everyday pro use, you'll be glad you have a metal housing that comes with the Marshall. Sure it adds weight, but Zacutos new arms (much more secure than a Noga) solve that problem.
I own a Marshall and use it with my 35 adaptor upside down or just as a location monitor when my larger 17" Panny 1700 isn't practical. In those situations, sharpness and accurate calibration are critical. You'll never get a Marshall to totally replicate color bars accurately but the brightness level is pretty damn close. For exposure on the field without a waveform this is critical. If my colors are slightly off due to less than pin point color accuracy, I can fix that without too much a price if any. But when exposure's off (signal is too thin or hot) matching scene to scene becomes a dicey. I can't rely on the HVX's LCD for that kind of accuracy. I can with the Marshall. Regarding color saturation, I think the Marshall could use more. Anything less (Ikan), would be too washed out to judge color contrast. At the end of the day, the gold standard is Panasonics 8" lcd. It's the only one out there that meets all the broadcast specs and has a waveform to boot. Too bad about the price. Marshall is one the few that comes close at a third of the price.
If the Ikan is just good enough for framing and focus, I'd think twice. For another 600, you have a monitor that's good enough for both but also has a picture quality that won't scare a client.
With either one, I recommend getting a snooted hood from Hoodman, especially for exterior work. Glare is always a big problem on LCD's when your outside. A three sided hood doesn't cut it on a Sunny day. The four side long hood by hoodman does the job.
Tim Naylor - DP
www.timnaylor.com
I own a Marshall and use it with my 35 adaptor upside down or just as a location monitor when my larger 17" Panny 1700 isn't practical. In those situations, sharpness and accurate calibration are critical. You'll never get a Marshall to totally replicate color bars accurately but the brightness level is pretty damn close. For exposure on the field without a waveform this is critical. If my colors are slightly off due to less than pin point color accuracy, I can fix that without too much a price if any. But when exposure's off (signal is too thin or hot) matching scene to scene becomes a dicey. I can't rely on the HVX's LCD for that kind of accuracy. I can with the Marshall. Regarding color saturation, I think the Marshall could use more. Anything less (Ikan), would be too washed out to judge color contrast. At the end of the day, the gold standard is Panasonics 8" lcd. It's the only one out there that meets all the broadcast specs and has a waveform to boot. Too bad about the price. Marshall is one the few that comes close at a third of the price.
If the Ikan is just good enough for framing and focus, I'd think twice. For another 600, you have a monitor that's good enough for both but also has a picture quality that won't scare a client.
With either one, I recommend getting a snooted hood from Hoodman, especially for exterior work. Glare is always a big problem on LCD's when your outside. A three sided hood doesn't cut it on a Sunny day. The four side long hood by hoodman does the job.
Tim Naylor - DP
www.timnaylor.com
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Tim,
Your observation on LCDs for outdoor applications is absolutely true no matter who manufactures the device. We use the Panasonic 900s and they require a full hood of six inches depth at minimum to be usable. We often have to pop them out of their unity levels and crank them full to see well enough for jib work.
I wonder if the Ikan issue is like a, forgive the term, "clamping" issue? It just kinda shuts down when the gain threshold is surpassed.
e
Your observation on LCDs for outdoor applications is absolutely true no matter who manufactures the device. We use the Panasonic 900s and they require a full hood of six inches depth at minimum to be usable. We often have to pop them out of their unity levels and crank them full to see well enough for jib work.
I wonder if the Ikan issue is like a, forgive the term, "clamping" issue? It just kinda shuts down when the gain threshold is surpassed.
e
electricpig
Well-known member
Tim, my Marshall is one of my bits of kit I have great pride in pulling out on shoots when I hire myself and camera out here in the UK. It's the one thing (along with my zacuto rods) that really has DP's drooling over image quality (after the HVX images).
I've got it all housed in a Petrol monitor bag with a built-in hood and strap for very easy and safe transport and use.
(I tried a SWIT 1080 for a single shoot, and was hugely dissapointed. I found it next to useless in low-light situations, and the fact it was plastic bad in my mind. I'd hate it to be knocked/hit, wheras my Marshall has received some heavy hits already and always comes back for more).
The Marshall is a pleasure to use, and I trust it implicitly in all lighting setups.
But my Noga arms have been a disappointment I must admit. They always seem to droop with my Marshall attatched, unless I tighten it up to ridiculous degrees, and if the rig gets a knock, or is sudddenly lifted off the tripod, I'm always glancing in it's direction half expecting it to slip.
The Z-release system looks fantastic, but it's the Zamerican arms that look the business, and I would imagine a very small travel to tighten/loosen them. Coupled with a Zicro-Mount on the bottom of the Marshall, they look to be a very quick-release way of changing kit configurations around on set.
Judging from your brief zacuto mention, I take it you have a selection of the z-release stuff. What's your experience of it?
Matty_g, I can assure you that you will love your Marshall, and it's build and image quality will mean it'll give you many years back in return for your money.
mike.c
I've got it all housed in a Petrol monitor bag with a built-in hood and strap for very easy and safe transport and use.
(I tried a SWIT 1080 for a single shoot, and was hugely dissapointed. I found it next to useless in low-light situations, and the fact it was plastic bad in my mind. I'd hate it to be knocked/hit, wheras my Marshall has received some heavy hits already and always comes back for more).
The Marshall is a pleasure to use, and I trust it implicitly in all lighting setups.
But my Noga arms have been a disappointment I must admit. They always seem to droop with my Marshall attatched, unless I tighten it up to ridiculous degrees, and if the rig gets a knock, or is sudddenly lifted off the tripod, I'm always glancing in it's direction half expecting it to slip.
The Z-release system looks fantastic, but it's the Zamerican arms that look the business, and I would imagine a very small travel to tighten/loosen them. Coupled with a Zicro-Mount on the bottom of the Marshall, they look to be a very quick-release way of changing kit configurations around on set.
Judging from your brief zacuto mention, I take it you have a selection of the z-release stuff. What's your experience of it?
Matty_g, I can assure you that you will love your Marshall, and it's build and image quality will mean it'll give you many years back in return for your money.
mike.c
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235 Studios
Veteran
Tim Naylor said:
That is a great point Tim- as perception of the client is huge on set. If the Client sees a sub par image, that does not instill a whole lot of confidence in them ..... hmmmm, it looks like I may be going back to the Marshall after all. Other then price, and the flimsy connection on the HVX side, I have not been disappointed with the Marshall when I have used it.
BTW- all you who are using the marshall regularly- (Or any other external monitor I guess) - have you found any solutions to the connection on the HVX side? It becomes very frustrating trying to pull focus and have the monitor flicker on and off because the HVX connection is not secure ....
Dont start thinking the Marshall is all that. It is still just a downrezed 7" LCD monitor, and before I let the client look at a Marshall I let them know that it is no where close to what the image really looks like. It is just a reference. I have not seen the IKAN yet, but lets not confuse the Marshall for being the cats meow. Im still waiting for something true HD that is better. Of course in the end always remember, you get what you pay for and I feel pretty confident that the IKAN is a step down, it all depends on how much of a step down. If client perseption is that important to you then you need to have a Panasonic 26" real HD monitor for clients, and then the IKAN would be just fine for reference.
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Tim Naylor
Veteran
re: Sunstream
Perhaps you didn't read my post carefully. I use the Marshall as a primary monitor only when a full size isn't practical (ie. doc, small crew, run gun, corporate industrial interviews with three man crew and ten minutes, etc..). In those situations, often clients are glad to have any decent monitor. Any professional can site several situations where you just have to grab the camera quickly and get it (ie. Sunset on a roof). No one's going to wait for you to set up and wire the 26". But if you have some type of decent monitoring in those situations, client loves it.
Concerning true HD, nobody makes a 720 or 1080 rez 7" monitor. At that size I'd rather trade good contrast, brightness, and color replication over pixel count. Ask anyone who uses CRT's on set. No broadcast CRT gets you full 1080 raster (all down rezzed) but they blow away any LCD ( of any pixel count ) concerning picture quality. But for practical reasons I primarily use the BT 1700 with scopes. It's a compromise that clients seem to cream in their jeans over. Under the certain situations I still use a CRT on set (high con images: horror films, noir, etc). For color correction, I use CRT'S exclusively (when the client's right over my shoulder).
Pixel count isn't everything it's cooped up to be. Go to any Circuit City: the Sony HD CRT's which don't exceed 720 wipe the floor with the new 1080p mega LCD's or plasmas. Unfortunately they weigh 300 lbs. At the end of the day detail and overall pic quality have much to do with contrast range. Look at anything that's out of focus under microscope or just real close, the contrast range is diminished - no true blacks. I'll take 480p with deep blacks over HD with narrow contrast parameters any day. Perhaps that's why in some situations, I find the DVX's image more pleasing than the HVX due to it's often noisy and compromised black level (pana really dropped the ball on this).
The holy grail for monitors would be a flat panel that matches CRT's in terms of contrast range with all the benefits of an LCD's portability. Until then you develop monitoring set ups that balance pragmatics with quality and durability. Extensive use, increases the likelihood of a monitor taking a hit. Plastic is not the way to go even as a reference. I swear the Ikan looks like a SWIT knock off (wouldn't be surprised if SWIT makes them).
Last note, concerning Marshall's connections. Mine are fine. It's Panasonics DVI to Component connection that are always the problem. Next to macroblocking noise, it's perhaps the most irresponsible piece of crap design on the camera. It's probably been Beta tested for half an hour because that's how long they seem to last. Sure SDI might've jacked the price way up, but why not just have component outs ala JVC. It would've added a square inch of space and reduce alot of agita. Can't wait for the HVX 200b.
Tim Naylor - DP
www.timnaylor.com
Perhaps you didn't read my post carefully. I use the Marshall as a primary monitor only when a full size isn't practical (ie. doc, small crew, run gun, corporate industrial interviews with three man crew and ten minutes, etc..). In those situations, often clients are glad to have any decent monitor. Any professional can site several situations where you just have to grab the camera quickly and get it (ie. Sunset on a roof). No one's going to wait for you to set up and wire the 26". But if you have some type of decent monitoring in those situations, client loves it.
Concerning true HD, nobody makes a 720 or 1080 rez 7" monitor. At that size I'd rather trade good contrast, brightness, and color replication over pixel count. Ask anyone who uses CRT's on set. No broadcast CRT gets you full 1080 raster (all down rezzed) but they blow away any LCD ( of any pixel count ) concerning picture quality. But for practical reasons I primarily use the BT 1700 with scopes. It's a compromise that clients seem to cream in their jeans over. Under the certain situations I still use a CRT on set (high con images: horror films, noir, etc). For color correction, I use CRT'S exclusively (when the client's right over my shoulder).
Pixel count isn't everything it's cooped up to be. Go to any Circuit City: the Sony HD CRT's which don't exceed 720 wipe the floor with the new 1080p mega LCD's or plasmas. Unfortunately they weigh 300 lbs. At the end of the day detail and overall pic quality have much to do with contrast range. Look at anything that's out of focus under microscope or just real close, the contrast range is diminished - no true blacks. I'll take 480p with deep blacks over HD with narrow contrast parameters any day. Perhaps that's why in some situations, I find the DVX's image more pleasing than the HVX due to it's often noisy and compromised black level (pana really dropped the ball on this).
The holy grail for monitors would be a flat panel that matches CRT's in terms of contrast range with all the benefits of an LCD's portability. Until then you develop monitoring set ups that balance pragmatics with quality and durability. Extensive use, increases the likelihood of a monitor taking a hit. Plastic is not the way to go even as a reference. I swear the Ikan looks like a SWIT knock off (wouldn't be surprised if SWIT makes them).
Last note, concerning Marshall's connections. Mine are fine. It's Panasonics DVI to Component connection that are always the problem. Next to macroblocking noise, it's perhaps the most irresponsible piece of crap design on the camera. It's probably been Beta tested for half an hour because that's how long they seem to last. Sure SDI might've jacked the price way up, but why not just have component outs ala JVC. It would've added a square inch of space and reduce alot of agita. Can't wait for the HVX 200b.
Tim Naylor - DP
www.timnaylor.com
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235 Studios
Veteran
taormina said:
How do you do that? When I connect it to my HVX the connection at the HVX is not the greatest (Component) or the most secure, if the cable gets bumped it drops the signal every so briefly. I've tested it out on another HVX, and it does the same thing. 90% of the time it is fine for me, but there is 10% of the time that the monitor flickers, or drops out. I'm very curious how you avoid this?
235 Studios
Veteran
Tim Naylor said:
I didn't mean to imply that it was the connection on the marshall side of the connection, but rather on the camera / HVX side of it. With how well they put everything else on the camera, this one area has been my biggest frustration.
Good points Tim, there is no doubt that the Marshall is a step up from the IKAN for those reasons (you get what you pay for). Im just saying that I expect the difference is much smaller between the two than the difference between the Marshall and the real HD monitor, point being that maybe soon we can have something better than the Marshall which I think is quite good but not great. I would probably grab a IKAN which gets decent reviews and has better price for reference to hold me over untill then especailly since I would use a full size monitor for studio stuff anyway. Im also not a guy who needs to have a monitor all the time anyway, I use it for reference. I have never been one to put all my trust in a field monitor. If I really needed to rely heavily on a field monitor, Id agree 100% and go with the Marshall as the better option, at least for now.
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bvalente
DVXuser Sponsor
Tim et al
Thanks for providing the additional perspective. I represent the Ikan and its pros/cons only from my own perspective. I don't have to work with clients who are staring at my monitor (fortunately ) and I may have slightly different requirements than others. I also own a marshall, and for me the tradeoff of portability and weight make it a worthwhile choice. I also know there are a fair number of inquiries we've received on a monitor that for which resolution and price are the two top considerations. That may not be for everyone, so thank goodness there are alternatives.
Personally, if my marshall were in a smaller, lighter form factor, I wouldn't mind schlepping it out more often.
Cheers
Brian
Thanks for providing the additional perspective. I represent the Ikan and its pros/cons only from my own perspective. I don't have to work with clients who are staring at my monitor (fortunately
) and I may have slightly different requirements than others. I also own a marshall, and for me the tradeoff of portability and weight make it a worthwhile choice. I also know there are a fair number of inquiries we've received on a monitor that for which resolution and price are the two top considerations. That may not be for everyone, so thank goodness there are alternatives.Personally, if my marshall were in a smaller, lighter form factor, I wouldn't mind schlepping it out more often.
Cheers
Brian
Guy_Cochran
DVXUser Sponsor
With the IKAN, the batteries/charger are so much cheaper.
What is everyone doing to power the Marshall? With the IDX battery and charger, the Marshall is double the cost of the IKAN - Here's the batteries on the Marshall Site
Is $299 for the V-DV-PWR1 and buying some Sony batteries and a charger off eBay the way to go?
What is everyone doing to power the Marshall? With the IDX battery and charger, the Marshall is double the cost of the IKAN - Here's the batteries on the Marshall Site
Is $299 for the V-DV-PWR1 and buying some Sony batteries and a charger off eBay the way to go?