ADR the entire film?

B

Bob Gruen

Well-known member
It seems like in the indie/video film making camp that everyone focuses on getting and using the best wild sound possible. I assume this is to shorten the editing process and to keep the post production budget low, but...

I attended a seminar in which the lecturer advised to budget for ADR for the entire film. His thinking is that unless you have clean, discrete tracks you cannot properly layer in the sound and adjust sound levels for multiple overlapping sounds.

Capturing the sound could be as simple as a lightweight, portable recording solution and a renting out an office room for a day. I have seen articles showing how to put a mic in a sound insulated box to minimise echo and room noise. This might only add up to $500 ~ $750 or so for a 90 minute film (if the actors can properly 'act' into the mic that is...)

Of course, the biggest problem with this is aligning the sounds with the picture. I understand that it will be time consuming and imperfect, but to me it still make sense.

Has anyone done this? Are there any methods or steps I can take during production that will smooth our the ADR process in post? I will be using an HVX200 which records 2 + 2, which is to say it records two channels from the on-board mic and two others from XLR inputs. I was thinking about limiting myself to getting a pair of Sennheiser G2 systems or 195 systems with good mics (see other post), a boom mic, and a studio mic for the ADR. The camera mic would basically be ignored.

Opinions?

Bob
 
i think that lecturer was on acid.

the film industry does NOT do ADR as a standard, and it is FAR cheaper to pay and record production sound than to do adequate ADR on an entire film.

"His thinking is that unless you have clean, discrete tracks you cannot properly layer in the sound and adjust sound levels for multiple overlapping sounds." - this is simply not true, and I dont think is a single mixer (location or post) or even sound editor that would disagree with me. This, of course, is assuming that you put some effort into getting the one or two tracks of oncamera audio.

"Capturing the sound could be as simple as a lightweight, portable recording solution and a renting out an office room for a day. I have seen articles showing how to put a mic in a sound insulated box to minimise echo and room noise. This might only add up to $500 ~ $750 or so for a 90 minute film (if the actors can properly 'act' into the mic that is...)" - There is NOTHING simple about what you are talking about. What visuals will you sync to? Can your actors actually DO the whole film (WELL) in a day? 90 MINUTES!?! I dont think so. You say it would be imperfect, and thats an understatement.

Trust me, the reason mixers aim for good production sound is not just for fun. Its because is THE MOST ECONOMICAL SOLUTION - both in terms of cost and time.

So thats my opinion. Dont do it. Dont even think about this.
 
i think that lecturer was on acid.
Click to expand...

Ditto. ADR is slow and complex and won't sound right unless you spend a lot of time getting the actors back into character.

It can be done, but you're far better off getting good sound in the first place.
 
timapter said:
i think that lecturer was on acid.
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I'll have to agree with this. I think you use ADR when needed but to go into it planning on ADR for the whole movie is just nuts IMO. Also (not experience, just hearsay) I've read that not every actor can pull off ADR successfully. They may be good actors but ADR is a whole different ballgame.
 
Bob Gruen said:
I attended a seminar in which the lecturer advised to budget for ADR for the entire film.
Click to expand...
Sure, its always smart to budget for ADR recording. After all, you don't want to get caught flat-footed when you have to replace a couple of lines of dialogue. Budgetting for the option to record a bit of ADR here and there is a good strategy. If you can get through the entire film without needing to dip into that ADR discressionary fund, then your post-production may well come in undder budget. ADRing an entire film just for the hell of it, on the other hand, is a gross waste of money.
Bob Gruen said:
His thinking is that unless you have clean, discrete tracks you cannot properly layer in the sound and adjust sound levels for multiple overlapping sounds.
Click to expand...
Not true. For one thing, digital multitracks such as the Deva or Sound Devices 744 allow you to record one track per mic. Even Stereo recorders can give you clean, discreet dialogue tracks. An experienced mixer will anticipate the needs of the dialogue editor, and will provide tracks that are conducive to dialogue editing. For their part, the dialogue editor will work at re-cutting the dialogue into discreet dialogue tracks for the re-recording mix.
Bob Gruen said:
Capturing the sound could be as simple as a lightweight, portable recording solution and a renting out an office room for a day.
Click to expand...
This is true to an extent: ADR can be recorded in an accoustically sympathetic location using a fairly simple equipment rig. However, this amounts to building your own temporary ADR suite, with the same technical considerations and issues faced in permanent studio design. If the temporary studio accoustics match those of the scene, then you can go a long way with this sort of a setup. Exteriors are another matter altogether: even if you line the walls and ceilling with accoustically absorbant material, you may still end up with a "fishbowl" ADR sound. If, on the other hand, you record all your ADR in a dry vocal booth, you'll end up with an unnaturally dry sound. You can try to put some of that "live" accoustics sound into the tracks through reverb proccessing, but it'll never sound quite like the real thing. There are very good reasons why proffessional ADR studios are expensive to build and opperate.

You'll have to record relatively clean production sound for a guide track, anyway, which means that the all ADR approach will not yield any significant savings in terms of production sound equipment or crew (you'll still need the same mics, mixer, and boom op). The all-ADR approach will nominally save time during production, since you won't have to occasionally re-take for sound. However, you'll have to bring your actors back to re-record everything, which gets very expensive if they expect to be paid.

Who was delivering this lecture? Were they able to provide examples of their work? Did they forget to mention that whatever you cover with ADR will have to also be covered in foley?
 
ADR is more costly and sometimes impossible when you have stars. I had a friend once who made his whole living doing Sean Connery's ADR because it cost a gazillion dollars to bring connery back.

I ADRed an entire short for HorrorFest, but only because there were ery few lines and it was relatively managable. We wound up using the location sound for the sections where the actress was the most emotional. There just was no way to get the exact performance back in those spots.

I wouldn't do a whole movie that way again, but I am not afraid of it when it's necessary.

However, ADR is used all the time. I've used it when prod sound wasn't good and I've used it to change an actor's performance by having them execute the lines in different ways after the fact. Brando was famous for this as well. I even brought a whole other actor in one time because I could not get the original actor back. So that performance is made up of two actors...

And it's not that hard to do. I learned a little trick from JDS that I use to this day and can get just about every actor to ADR well. Some better than others, but I can get them all to hit their marks easily.
 
Everything about ADR is difficult. First you have to round up your actors to come back (often months after the original project was shot). Second, those actors have to be able to deliver the same emotional performance that they gave on set, with an environment and the other actors to feed off of. Third, matching (for the actor) is very difficult when trying to bring up the emotional level. Fourth, matching is very difficult for the dialog editor after the fact. And finally, you will have to foley all the sfx in a scene that is ADR'd.

ADR has its place. You can replace dialog that wasn't captured properly on the set (background noise problems, RF hit, etc). Second, you can improve your project by inserting new dialog to make the story more clear.

Whoever this person was that delivered that seminar is the reason that we as sound mixers/recordists have such a difficult time on set. They perpetuate the notion "that we don't need another one for sound because we can fix it in post".

This is why I tell every new director I work with (in my low budget world): If I ask for another take, pretend the DP just said the last take was out of focus. Directors would never hesitate to do another take in that circumstance, so treat sound the same way. Doesn't always work, but if I call for another take and they refuse, I'm off the hook. I just mark the track unusable in my sound log and we move on.

Phil
 
Bob Gruen said:
I attended a seminar in which the lecturer advised to budget for ADR for the entire film. His thinking is that unless you have clean, discrete tracks you cannot properly layer in the sound and adjust sound levels for multiple overlapping sounds.
Click to expand...

I will add a couple of things to the great advice given so far.

1) If you paid for this seminar. ASK FOR YOUR MONEY BACK.
2) The only time you would want to budget ADR for an entire film is if the entire shoot takes place on a stage with lots of noise, like from wind machines for instance.
3) You should definitely budget for some ADR in a movie, as it is usually inevitable that you'll need to re-do some lines. Most of the time principle cast has a clause in their contract allowing for a couple of days of ADR. Day players will have to be paid again if they have to do ADR.
4) Recording lav mics to discreet tracks like on a deva DOESN'T guarantee that you'll have clean dialog from one actor. If another actor in the scene starts talking over the other actors lines, they will still be picked up on that track but will sound "off mic". If the situation arises that one actor needs to interupt another, you would be better off getting clean takes from each actor and then overlapping them in post, although sometimes this may not be practical on set.
5) If you dont have a multitrack recorder the best solution is to at least have a mixer that you can send a left and right channel to the camera. Pan the boom mic to the left so it goes to Channel 1 of the camera, then pan any and all lav mics to the right so they go to channel 2 on the camera. Try to avoid mixing boom and lavs together.
 
Yep, never mix lavs and boom on the same track. If you iso the lavs to the same track, then if you take an RF hit, you still have the boom to fall back on. Mix the two, you have no fall back.

Phil
 
I'm not quite sure I understand the idea of doing ADR in a rented office space. Proper ADR requires that the talent is able to hear a scratch track of the original location dialogue and clearly see their performance onscreen in order to deliver the line. I don't know how you'd accomplish this with a portable recorder in some office, unless the talent was looking at a laptop screen or something, and that could be dodgy because the screen would probably be too small to be seen clearly from far enough away.

Anyway, ADR sessions can be really fun, but they can also be totally hellish if your talent is bitchy or if you're coming off just a few hours of sleep (both situations have happened to me numerous times), and no matter how fun or hellish they are it's always incredibly tedious to drop the lines in with picture later.

But with that said, I'm currently recording ADR for a film that was the victim of a student producer's total failure to do her job, which meant that no location recordist even showed up. No scratch tracks, no nothing. And in a bad situation like that, it can actually be quite interesting to go the Italian route and fabricate everything in the studio in an ever-so-slightly exaggerated manner. In this particular case, considering the look and subject matter of the movie, I think the fact that there was no recordist was a blessing in disguise because the results are shaping up to be pretty interesting.

Of course, this method wouldn't work for most films. But my point is that ADR isn't always a thing to be avoided at all costs. Most of the time, but not always.
 
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