Alternative to high priced tripods?

John Froton said:
It would be nice to hear a little more about how control over the drag benefits and justifies spending 2 to 5K :)
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On the low end, all the heads feel relatively the same to me. But, on the high end, they're all different. It's sort of like my experience with high end guitars and amplifiers. There are a lot of subtle differences, even among products with similar specifications. I like your idea of trying out heads first hand. The NAB show is a good place for that experience.
 
The claws have come from me so I apologize if anyone is offended. I really mean no ill will towards the OP or anyone else who can only afford a budget tripod. My beef is with Amvona which in my opinion uses misleading practices to dupe people into thinking this tripod is more than it is. They have outrageously high list prices and a much lower selling prices in order to trick people into thinking this is a bargain. They use reviews that don't know what they are talking about and they say the drag is adjustable which is pretty lame because you supposedly do that with the pan/tilt locks.

mainstreetprod said:
If two experienced shooters shoot the same scene, one with my "waste of money" tripod, one with the $5000 Vinten, will the editor be able to tell the difference? Is the guy who buys the $5000 tripod really getting his money's worth? Sorry, but I just don't buy the argument that you always get what you pay for.
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Yes, an editor will be able to tell. It will take the shooter several more takes to finesse the budget head into a smooth move instead of being able to do it the first time around. There may also be end-framing errors (movements) due to the head not being perfectly balanced or drift-back due to less rigidity. If the move is a slow move, the speed of the pan and tilt may vary instead of being consistent because the budget head is not able to increase the drag to a higher level. And if the move is done at a long focal length, the budget head will have no chance against a high-end head.
 
I have to jump in here on this one - This head looks alot like my libec h38 head that I just got. I like it alot for what it is. I do low budget work with dogs as a side thing and an excuse to spend money on a hobby. If I had a feature with a budget, I'd be all over a 5000 dollar tripod though. I've had a brief encounter with a nicer vinten (dont know the model) and it was amazing to feel the range it had. And I imagine it wasnt built on an assembly line by welding robots like the Yaris is. And dont forget thats a cheap entry level car anyways. Go compare your 5000 dollar vinten to a ferrari and now we are talking apples to apples. Anyways this tripod probably has its place in life, but it is what it is. Kind of like home depot lights. You can do a whole lot with them, but theres a reason the arris, and kinos of the world cost what they do. And even the Oktava, and its issues with handling noise. Nicer, more expensive mics dont have that problem. Anyways I'm done ranting... Just couldnt not chime in after reading this thread...
 
For that matter, I don't a Ferrari is worth what you pay for it either! But i understand
the argument that someone who does this for a living, day in and day out needs the top tools at whatever price. A lot of us here don't fit in that category though and need something that is reasonably good at a down to earth price.

I spent the day using the tripod for stock footage shots and was pleased with it.
Here is a sample shot, a fairly complex pan/tilt of an overhead bridge:

http://web.mac.com/mainstreetprod/iWeb/Mainstreet/Blank 4.html

It's definitely smoother than my Bogen 3063/3046 and the sticks are a lot more rigid.
 
mainstreetprod said:
For that matter, I don't a Ferrari is worth what you pay for it either! But i understand
the argument that someone who does this for a living, day in and day out needs the top tools at whatever price. A lot of us here don't fit in that category though and need something that is reasonably good at a down to earth price.

I spent the day using the tripod for stock footage shots and was pleased with it.
Here is a sample shot, a fairly complex pan/tilt of an overhead bridge:

http://web.mac.com/mainstreetprod/iWeb/Mainstreet/Blank 4.html

It's definitely smoother than my Bogen 3063/3046 and the sticks are a lot more rigid.
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Mainstreet - I looked at your footage and it does look smooth. I am in the market for a mid-range tripod and I do appreicate your postings. Haven't made up my mind just yet.

As an aside, (and decidely off topic - sorry) I also looked at the piece on your site labeled Blank5 and it brought tears to my eyes. Nicely done!
 
ed209 - if you have proof that those reviews are shills (i.e., multiple duplicate sentences found in other product reviews, identically misspelled words, etc), please come forward with it. If not, I think it's safe to say we all understand your opinion about these tripods.
 
I hate to keep beating a dead horse but since you asked, here you go:

Review 1 said:
I use very heavy camera for today’s standards (40 - 45 lb) Sony or Ikegami BetaCam SP with BVV5 back, Chrozsiel Matte box, Anton Bauer Propack 14 digital, and Portabrace cover, and a small body Arriflex 16 with accoutrements and even with all this it holds very very well, all Pans and tilts seem very smooth, and the breaks hold well too.
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A Sony BVP-7 camera weighs 8 lbs. A BVV-5 BetacamSP docking back also weighs about 8 lbs. Add batteries and a lens and it probably weighs about 25 lbs. Even if you threw on dual radio mics and a matte box, i think he's exaggerating a bit about 40-45 lbs. But even at 25 lbs i really doubt this head could balance this setup since the center of gravity of this camera is about 6" above the tripod adapter. the spring would have to be extremely stiff, yet other people say it balances lighter cameras. That doesn't make sense since the spring can only be turned on or off.
Review1 said:
the bag is as good as many top end tripods, and it comes with two handles and adjustment tools, no instructions, (but if you need instructions to use a tripod, then maybe you shouldn’t own one), hehehehe just kidding. Over all, my feeling is that it is as good as a Vinten 10 or 12, with the same kind of features and bag, costing 2000.00.
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This head really has no adjustment. It only has two levers, which means it is using the pan and tilt locks to adjust the drag. Thats crazy. No pro tripod does that. He also says it has the same features and is as good a Vinten 10 or Vinten 12.

Amvona: $400, weighs 17.6 lbs, counterbalance only on or off, really only one level of drag, tilt range +/-70

Vinten 11: $4900, weighs 14 lbs, continuous perfect balance between 14 and 37 lbs, continuous variable drag with whip pan, +/-90 tilt, separate locks, lit bubble

The Vinten totally owns the Amvona, its not even close. And that's just comparing the specs. I bet the Vinten also feels a lot better. But it also cost 10 times as much. If anyone says to you this $400 tripod is just as good, i'd be real suspcious.




 
thx for the posting mainstreet. This is exactly the kind of tripod I was looking for, because like others have pointed out, most of us can't dish out the thousands to get the high end tripods.
 
I just received my new Sachtler DV6 SB and Miller Solo legs.
From the moment I took each piece out of the box I knew I'd just taken a big step up from my Manfrotto 516 with 351CF legs - definately relegated to second camera now.
I don't know whether the head or legs made me drool more.

This is a fantastic combination, and I understand what a true fluid head should feel like now. It's effortless and well engineered. Highly recommended.

Thanks to puredrifting for his endorsement, I'm one happy bunny.
 
After working with the Amvona tripod for several weeks now I can give a more
enlightened opinion of it. I now better understand the posters who say it can't compare with the high priced models.

I still love the sticks - they are probably worth the $400 price by themselves. So easy to set up and very rigid compared to my Bogen 3046.

The head is another story. I am able to get reasonably good shots with it, but as someone said, it is far from effortless. At some point I will probably invest in
a Sachtler or similar head.

The tripod is a good buy for someone who wants a reasonably good tripod for a good price now, with the idea of upgrading the head later.
 
I dont really know a lot about tripods, but i just wanted to say that video equipment is vastly overpriced!

Yes, there is no logical explanation how a tripod could cost the same as an automobile... but think about this, a steadicam which is basically aluminum tubing and springs costs the same as a hybrid Toyota.

And don't get me started on lights... basically go to home depot, pick out any light, write the word "video" on it and add two zeros to the price... once again, there is no reason that a few fluorescent light bulbs in an assembly should cost several thousand dollars, but as long as pros are willing to pay that price the rest of us will get screwed.

It is a tradition thing with outrageous prices of "pro" video equipment, and until big companies stop paying insane prices the status quo will never change.

Just my 2 cents.
 
While I agree that prices for some things are slightly out of wack that does not apply to everything. You can probably get by with Home Depot lights on some work but if you really want to compose a great image then you will need lighting specifically designed for this. And the fact that the market for that specific lighting is small meaning volumes are small cause the supplier of this speciality devices to charge more so they can cover R&D, manufacturing, marketing, and other costs. And they also want to make a profit to remain in business.

So while cost look high compared to standard consumer product there tends to be a reason. As Shakespeare once said there is a method to the madness.
 
futureman,

What an ignorant comment. Go to home depot, buy fluorescents, for example, and then shoot with them. Look how everyone turns green in your footage, gets washed out cause you can't dim them, and deal with the flicker from the ballasts. Then go get yourself a set of Kino Flos , look at the temperature matched globes, the dimming capability, and the high frequency ballasts that will not flicker.

You totally get what you pay for. If you play with ****, you're going to smell like ****. Easy.
 
Phillips and many other manufacturers make daylight balanced fluorescent tubes... and i have not bought a fluorescent bulb in ten years that has had even the slightest amount of flicker!

There is no difference in the quality of the light.

And if you can not make good films with affordable lights, you may want to go back to school, I am sure there are a few in "The OC"


Miiason... you are right, they do make very few units and this undoubtedly drives up prices... since every unit needs to be essentially hand made, but by twenty fold, still seems like a bit much!
 
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No- you're right. It's the big 'corporations' greedily stealing money from the little guy by selling low end equipment with a 1000% markups. There is no difference at all in the equipment.

Sheesh.

And you've used high end lighting how many times?
 
Film and video lighting is a very specific animal, and it mostly boils down to control. And if you want to control light then it should be emitted from a point source so you can wrap a reflector around it and make it do exactly what you want it to. Anything that you buy from Home Depot will not be a point source, thus you will be working with 'soft' lighting. (A point source would be a filament or arc, not a frosted bulb.) If you can shoot with nothing but soft lighting, then more power to you, but the rest of us will need directional lighting.

When trying to determine if something is overpriced or not you also have to stand back and look at the economics of the thing. I wish HMI lighting were cheaper, and I know they definately could be cheaper if there was more of a demand and more units bought and sold. As far as I know the two main consumers of HMI technology would be film/video and military, and that is just not enough to get the economics to turn to favor the consumer.

This holds true for most of the other high priced 'tools of the trade'. They have to be functional, rugged, and safe. They are very specific, and therefore will remain expensive.

That being said, I have a $5500 camera that can create footage that can be printed to film, so there are some bargains out there. For the price of a good new car, I have built a fully functional production company. I'll rent the things I need when the time comes.

Bob
 
taormia

Can you honestly tell me that a light bulb in an aluminum housing with a piece of glass with concentric rings cut into to it is worth over a thousand dollars?

I have also had the good fortune to work with Oconnor tripods... and yes they are absolutely amazing, in terms of smoothness... however, is seven thousand dollars a fair price, i would have to argue no.

And yes, i have worked with good lights, my university has a fully functional TV studio stocked with over $500,000 in lights... do they make shooting easier, yes, is that a fair price for them, no... could i get equal results with modified home depot lights at 5% the price, yes... it would just be a little more tricky!
 
Futureman,

I think you're missing the point here. We're talking about Professional equipment. the key here is professional, meant for true full blown productions, not prosumer.

There has been a blurring of the lines lately with digital video, and amazing cameras like the XL1, DVX100, and now the HVX200, that are truly blurring the lines between the consumer and the professional. High quality cameras are very affordable, and yes professional (there's that word again) film equipment is overpriced by an individual standpoint, but not an industry standpoint.

What I mean to say is that while you can achieve something similar to a Kino-Flo with some DYI lights from home depot at a fraction of the cost, are you going to stake your professional reputation on it? When you're a producer spending $50,000 a day on crew alone, do you really want to spend a few extra minutes every shot to get the same results? No, you pay extra to have those concentric rings that give you that extra control over your lighting rig.

I think the disconnect here is the difference between the markets. Most Arri, Kinos and professional equipment is marketed towards Rental houses, not individual consumers. In this field minutes means thousands of dollars, missed pans means ruined reputations and results are all that matters.

There is a third element to this that may not be all that altruistic, but the truth of the matter is that aesthetics do matter. They matter to the client. When they're paying you 10,000 or whatever to make an promotional video they want to see the grip truck with all the expensive equipment and the pretty lights and the big imposing, expensive looking camera to be assured that they are getting their money's worth. I know of one production company in my area who chose not to get an HVX-200 because it just looked too small, it didn't look expensive enough. From what I understand they're waiting on the HPX-500. Not because of the 2/3 chipset or increased resolution (Though thats an added bonus) but because the HVX just didn't look expensive enough.

That being said, I have to agree with those here who say there is no way this tripod compares to a true professional tripod like an O'Connor or a Satchler, but I have to also say that it sounds like a decent tripod for the price.

My .02
 
I can see both sides of the argument. A rental house would not hesitate to pay the
high price of a piece of pro gear because their customers want only the best and
they will recover the price anyway after many rentals. But things are changing -
the price of a camera that will shoot professional looking video (in the right hands)
is steadily coming down, partly because the quantity sold is going up. Now the market for support gear and lighting gear and audio gear for these cameras is escalating. It's just a matter of time before some enterprising manufacturer starts making more affordable pro level equipment like this - maybe a whole line of it. Manufacturers
of high quality gear can command the price they charge because they know buyers
have no other option - if they want quality, they must buy from them, or one of the
other two or three competitors. But throw a high quality reasonably priced manufacturer into the mix and prices of that high priced gear will fall accordingly. And they will still make a reasonable profit.
 
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