Best program for sound with apple G-5 is?

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David_M_Payne

Well-known member
Right now we are looking at apples Logic pro 7 and a couple of pro tools programs. The logic program is nice but at $999.00 it is pricy. We found a couple of low end pro tools software/hardware combos that the guy at the music store liked at 299.00 and 500.00. We are using Final cut pro studio for the master editing program for our film with my G-5, and as I have already sunk over $60,000 in cameras (2 HVX200) and related sound and lighting equipment etc I would like to cut what corners I can. I still have actors pay and location costs to deal with. We have time for this decision on the best program for creating our own music and loops for the film so I'm looking for input on which is the best way to go under $1,000 for the sound program. Suggestions? Thanks

David
 
If you go with an m-box (2) with protools le make sure you go with the latest version (7.3) I have had all kinds of trouble monitoring audio out of FCP with my m-box. I only recently solved them with a firmware update and I don't trust it to stay working. I even used the presonus firebox and had all kinds of pops and clicks. You may want to look at the kona lhe card to monitor audio and video.
 
saneproductions said:
If you go with an m-box (2) with protools le make sure you go with the latest version (7.3) I have had all kinds of trouble monitoring audio out of FCP with my m-box. I only recently solved them with a firmware update and I don't trust it to stay working. I even used the presonus firebox and had all kinds of pops and clicks. You may want to look at the kona lhe card to monitor audio and video.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. At 1600 for the card that gets me back into the money problems again. At this point I'm looking at selling my truck for more cash and that card might be out of my range right now. If I go with the apple logic pro 7 software would that eliminate the kind of problems you had?

David
 
I don't know what you should do, honestly I don't have a ton of time to figure this out right now, but if we can wait until later tonght, i will look into it a little more. Can you give more details as to your project requirements?

You can always monitor audio with the mini 3.5mm jack on the computer and use soundtrack pro, it is free. The stock mini jack is noisy though (can be minimzed by getting a "home theatre" power strip with power conditioning from costco for $50 and plugging in everything to that (monitors, computers, mixer, printer EVERYTHING))

Be back
 
Hey David, if you want to give me a call tomorrow, I can talk to you about this stuff. My phone number is on my website. There are too many troubles to list.
 
Pro Tools is the industry standard, but you'll still need a way to migrate the sound from FCP to PT when you're done the picture edit. OMF import/export functionality is available for PT LE using the DV Toolkit 2 software option, which also comes with a number of other handy tools (convolution reverb, DiNR, Vocalign, timecode ruler). Unfortunately, the blasted DV Toolkit ($1295) still costs more than an Mbox2. Resist the temptation to save money by opting for a cheaper M-powered Pro Tools option, because PT M-powered does NOT support the DV Toolkit option.

As for monitoring audio in FCP, if you experience problems trying to use hardware like the Mbox2 with FCP, simply use either the 1/8" output from your soundcard (as Saneproductions suggested) or use the line output of your camera/video deck/firewire transcoder (if you're using one). Get yourself a small desktop mixer to keep everything going to the same speakers. Critical audio monitoring is not absolutely neccessary during the picture editing stage, although its certainly ideal to use the best possible monitoring environment (picture and audio) at all times.

One of the biggest advantages of PT LE for audio post-production is that the session files are directly compatible with the Pro Tools HD and TDM systems found in most mixing theatres. PT is really the only game in town if you plan on out-sourcing any of your audio post work, although you should be aware that PT LE does not support surround tracks (stereo only). Even with that limitation, its simple enough to reroute stereo sessions for surround during the final mix in an HD- or TDM-equipped facility.
 
Great post SMuir!

Do you really need the DV toolkit? (if he is short on cash)

Couldn't you just export the files and work on them audio only?

Which flavor of mbox 2 do you reccommend for him (I have the original)?
 
I have an old Mbox, and its served me well for years. I'm not completely up to speed on the features on the new mboxes, but even a bare-bones LE-based system will be extremely flexible. If you plan on going to a propper dubbing stage for your mixes, you won't really need many of the plugins bundled with some of the Mbox2 flavours out there. I don't reccomend using the mic preamps built into the Mboxes (or the A-D converters, for that matter): if you're planning on recording ADR or foley, you'd do well to go for a higher end LE system (eg. Digi 002). That said, I've used the Mbox for location foley (with a Mackie on the front end), and was quite happy with the result.

The advantage of the DV Toolkit lies in the included digitranslator plugin, which allows quick and easy OMF conversion. Using OMF as an interchange format, migrating edit sessions from FCP, Avid, and Premiere (using Automatic Duck's OMF plugin) into Pro Tools is a breeze. There are certainly other ways to get audio from FCP into PT, but OMF is the best I've encountered. Perhaps the biggest advantage is that OMF allows you to retain your region handles, which is indespensable for dialogue editing. 30 seconds (or more) of handle on alll regions makes life a lot easier. You can also translate level and pan automation via OMF, but this is usually more trouble than its worth.

I know the DV Toolkit is expensive, but when you take into account the time it saves (time=money), it will just about pay for itself after only a couple projects.

The other option, of course, is to find someone who already has Digitranslator or the DV Toolkit, and get them to convert the files for you. I know that I've made a few bucks on the side converting OMFs for people. Talk to the folks you're contracting for the final mix; with any luck they have Digitranslator already and will throw in the conversion gratis.

One final thing about DV Toolkit: without it, LE will not want to measure the timeline in SMPTE timecode. Without it, you won't be able to "spot" anything to specific timecodes, and you'll be obliged to rely entirely on the window burn in your video clip. This can be very troubling, especially if the editor forgot the 2-beep and/or tail pop. The DV Toolkit also streamlines a number of other audio post issues (eg. sample/video rate pull up/down), and gives you a few more voices to kick around. DiNR and vocalign are less useful: DiNR will reduce noise but wreakes havoc on the sound, and vocalign is no substitute for good ADR and ADR editing.
 
As a point of reference, here's a rundown of my audio editing setup:

Mac G4
Mbox running PT LE 6
DV Toolkit
DV camera (PT video out via Firewire into the camera)
Beat up old 14" TV
12x4 desktop mixer
Yorkville YSM1P powered monitors
 
If it makes you feel any better, even when you purchase a $15,000 PT HD system, you still have to buy digitranslator separately. Kinda weak, but true!

I think the only other real option in the 2K'ish price range is Nuendo, which is also supposedly very good and recommended by many folks here on the board. I have not personally used it. Pretty much any PT LE solution is gonna be close to that when you figure in the DV Toolkit.
 
I suppose the "PT vs. everything else" question really comes down to whether or not you'll be outsourcing any of the work.

If you're planning on doing both the editing and the mixing in-house, then you can really use whichever system offers the features you're after for a better price. The down side is that you'll have to sink a lot more money into designing and building a mixing facility suitable to your destination format (be it broadcast, DVD, or film). In that case, the cost of the software and hardware will be just the tip of the iceberg. You'll still have to pay for studio design services (unless you happen to be an accoustic engineer), renovations, installation, and ongoing maintenance.

For most independant producers and sound editors, its much more cost-effective to build a modest editing room built around a PT LE system, and use that to edit and premix. Once you've taken it as far as you can on PT LE, its a simple matter to bring the session to an appropriate dubbing stage and put that final coat of 5.1 pollish on the film. Essentially, you do 95% of the work in a stereo sound editing room (fitted with about $4000 in gear), then cover that last 5% in a state-of-the-art multi-million dollar (ie. $100 per hour) mixing theatre. Even facilities that specialize in in-house audio post will usually have a number of small editing rooms feeding a large dubbing stage.
 
SMuir said:
I suppose the "PT vs. everything else" question really comes down to whether or not you'll be outsourcing any of the work.
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Ditto. I became a Nuendo convert iover the last 3 years, even sold my Digi002 setup but 95% of the what I do, I do the final mix. Unfortunately I learned too late of the problems involved in bringing a Nuendo project into PT. Was able to sort it while only adding a couple extra hours to the import process but it was frustrating as hell.

If you are doing all the work yourself then Nuendo is a great choice and IMHO superior to PT LE with DV tookit. But if you need to export to another PT system, then PT is the way to go.

Cheers
 
wabbit said:
Ditto. I became a Nuendo convert iover the last 3 years, even sold my Digi002 setup but 95% of the what I do, I do the final mix. Unfortunately I learned too late of the problems involved in bringing a Nuendo project into PT. Was able to sort it while only adding a couple extra hours to the import process but it was frustrating as hell.

If you are doing all the work yourself then Nuendo is a great choice and IMHO superior to PT LE with DV tookit. But if you need to export to another PT system, then PT is the way to go.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Surprisingly, the DAW manufacturers aren't terribly interested in increasing interoperability :)
 
David_M_Payne said:
Right now we are looking at apples Logic pro 7 and a couple of pro tools programs. The logic program is nice but at $999.00 it is pricy. We found a couple of low end pro tools software/hardware combos that the guy at the music store liked at 299.00 and 500.00. We are using Final cut pro studio for the master editing program for our film with my G-5, and as I have already sunk over $60,000 in cameras (2 HVX200) and related sound and lighting equipment etc I would like to cut what corners I can. I still have actors pay and location costs to deal with. We have time for this decision on the best program for creating our own music and loops for the film so I'm looking for input on which is the best way to go under $1,000 for the sound program. Suggestions? Thanks

David
Click to expand...
A cheap but very functional program is Amadeus Pro by Hairer Software for $50 (http://www.hairersoft.com/Welcome.html). Depends what you want to do with your sound. You can also get plug-ins to add features as you need them (I like the sound of Waves products).
 
Lots of replies on the pro tools solutions but not much on apples Logic pro 7. Does anyone here have any experence with this program? We are looking at a also adding a keyboard ($400-600) to use the program fully. (I wish I could be more specific on this but I'm not a musician so I can't do music speak, so to speak, but two of the guys working on the film are.)

So any thoughts on the apple pro 7 solution?

David
 
I hate to say this but since you have already invested $60,000 plus into your project you will be better served to export your audio tracks via omf or even aiff/wav files to a professional audio engineer. Truth be told you can have the highest end Pro Tools set-up with a professionally designed studio and still produce crappy sound. Without a pro running the gear you will be unhappy with the results.

Perhaps on your next project where you don't have as much on the line you can play around and get yourself familiar with whatever program you choose. I assume since you are a Mac that you are using FCP Studio. Might as well start with Soundtrack Pro....this will give you a good start... Although Logic is a super powerful program the learning curve is very steep.

Remember this... audio is very much a black art not unlike a true colorist. It really takes a trained ear to get a mix just right.

You may want to check out the Tascam FW-1082...it comes with Cubase LE....but most importantly it works seemlessly with FCP, and Soundtrack Pro. I just picked one up for under $500. Check out Guitar Center online they were having a clearance on them last week for $499 if not still on sale you can get it for $599...If nothing else it gives you the best way outside of a dedicated capture card to monitor your audio.

Don't take this post the wrong way...I am sure you have all the capabilities in the world...For big projects I just choose to leave the audio to the pros....For other projects I'll just wing it.
 
Soundtrack is a great program and with enough creativity, it will do the job you want it to.

If you want more of a specialized solution, Logic Express might be the ticket.

Logic 7 Pro is great, I've been a user since version 4 and are very happy with its ability to express my creativity.
 
saneproductions said:
have you tried soundtrack pro? It is a free app with final cut pro.
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We have had some experence with it Mike but it is limited in the sound effects and loops it has.

David
 
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