How much to charge for 50min Doco?

F

filmshoot

New member
Hi,

I was wondering how much I should charge for a 50 minute documentary?

so I am expecting about 5-9 hours of raw footage probably. Any idea of how long it would take to edit this? *just a standard doco, nothin fancy
I know to shoot this thing will probably take a few "days"

Here is the project:

It is an adaptation of a book, and will be released around the same time as the book. The doco will promote the book, and the business of the guy who wrote the book. The guy doesn't have to much money, so I am looking for a fair estimate here.

I will have to interview about 5-8 people and have many interviews with the main character (author of the book)

The completed project will be pressed to DVD, so he will probably want about 500 of these dvd's.

Also, what are the rate differences between shooting in HD or standard?

I may give him the option: where I will shoot in HD and give him the HD version on one HD disc or (hdd transfer) and author the film on standard DVD

I appreciate all your help! This project will be a from start to finish bid, and will probably take a few months!

thanks heaps!
 
I'm no expert and I'm sure better answers are forthcoming, but for me, I would figure up my living expenses for 3 months and double them (they say to double your money, right?) round it to a nice even number and walla... That's what I would do, anyway. Anyone else?
 
filmshoot said:
I was wondering how much I should charge for a 50 minute documentary?
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I've never made a 50 minute documentary all by myself. But, it usually takes me (shooter), a writer/producer, and an editor about 50-80 man hours to make a 5 minute news magazine / docco-style package for television broadcasting... That's a lot of work for 5 minutes, but that's usually what it takes to make something worth watching. I would imagine a video 10x that length would take, at least, 10x the man hours...
so I am expecting about 5-9 hours of raw footage probably. Any idea of how long it would take to edit this? *just a standard doco, nothin fancy I know to shoot this thing will probably take a few "days"
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That's hardly enough footage to make a 50 minute documentary. Maybe a ten minute promo, but not an hour long docco.
The guy doesn't have to much money, so I am looking for a fair estimate here.
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Fair is gonna be way more than that guy is willing to pay. Quote him $3,000 for a 10 minute video and move on to the next customer... If that's more than he's willing to pay discuss scaling down the project to a two minute webisode or something for under $1K... That's what I would do... Ok, to be honest, I'm not even sure I would flirt with that kind of gig. Too many red flags! I avoid so called "jobs" from grinders and tire kickers. And that sounds like a headache from day 1.
 
colormeter said:
Fair is gonna be way more than that guy is willing to pay. Quote him $3,000 for a 10 minute video and move on to the next customer... If that's more than he's willing to pay discuss scaling down the project to a two minute webisode or something for under $1K... That's what I would do... Ok, to be honest, I'm not even sure I would flirt with that kind of gig. Too many red flags! I avoid so called "jobs" from grinders and tire kickers. And that sounds like a headache from day 1.
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I agree that this sounds like it will be loads of work for little money. I also think that $3000 is way too low for a 10-minute program with multiple shoot days. Companies around here (metro Washington DC) charge that to shoot and edit 2-hour meetings.

I am confused by the terms 'standard doco' - and an 'adaptation of a book.' You mean a promotional piece for a book? Is it simply talking heads and stills from the book for broll? (50-minutes is indeed 5 or 6 times too long for a promotional piece.)

To make things simple for you and your client, you should be able to estimate how many days you will spend shooting and how many hours editing and post-producing the video and then charge what you feel is a fair rate (like $400 a shoot day and $75 an hour for editing). Allow for many hours of client changes in the editing process. Add direct costs for music, stock footage, equipment rentals, contracted crew, etc, with a 20-30% markup. Work up a fixed price based on this and then have the client sign a contract that stipulates that the flat fixed price is based on a ceiling of xx hours and however many iterations after the rough cut you feel is reasonable. (Usually a rough cut, then a fine cut, then the final.) If the project goes over that, an hourly rate applies for additional work. Also stipulate in writing that any travel, parking, courier and other expenses will be covered by the client. And that you will be paid 50% up front deposit, 25% when you present a rough cut and the 25% balance when you deliver a final deliverable. If the client has a problem signing a contract or paying a deposit..run away.
 
pmgmedia said:
I agree that this sounds like it will be loads of work for little money. I also think that $3000 is way too low for a 10-minute program with multiple shoot days. Companies around here (metro Washington DC) charge that to shoot and edit 2-hour meetings.
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Those companies you mention surely have more experience and, more importantly, more overhead than an individual with a MiniDV cam. An individual who asks about the general rates in this industry probably doesn't do this kind of work full time and probably doesn't have more than six months behind a prosumer camera... Not that that's a bad thing, it just doesn't enable a person to command professional rates, that's all. Not that they would attract professional clients at that level, but that's beside the point.

The author who contacted this video person, did so, most likely, knowing that they were green, and therefore more affordable than an established company. I personally would not trust a newbie to make a documentary about me. I would want an experienced documentary director that could tell a great story and I would be willing to pay the price to do it right, or else I wouldn't do it at all.

The kind of person who trusts a newbie with a documentary (i.e. - writing, storytelling) project is obviously looking for a bargain and therefore not terribly concerned with the quality or outcome of the project -or- they are incredibly concerned and will therefore be let down in a big way. In either case, that's not the kind of project I'd want to be involved in...

Plus, there's no way some small time author is gonna pay $1K a minute for a video when his only plans for the video are 500 burnable DVD's (only half the amount required for replication and silk screening!)

Respectfully,
 
thanks everyone, your help with this is invaluable. Thank you PMG for your specific, logical straight forward answer, it is almost exactly what I was looking for.

This project will be the first that I take on by myself, without being under an already existing umbrella. I have directed shorts and documentaries before, as well as been a camera op. on a feature. I do have a few years of experience, but I have never taken on a project by myself, and tried to rally a crew together and pay people fairly. This is a huge step for me. It's this business aspect of the film-world that I know little about.

The project I discussed will be a documentary. I said it would be a promo. only because if someone saw the doc. and liked it so much they could then turn to the book, or go straight to the author and hire him for his consulting services. But that is as close to a promo as it is. It will stand alone by itself, and is supported by a great story, full of inspiration, passion and intrigue.


The majority of the film will be talking heads, supported by an eye-candy assortment of b-roll. (Not too much in the way of special effects, reenactments etc.)

I will meet with the author and draw up a contract, and let you guys know what happened. I am assuming from this post, that if the project was between $10,000-$20,000, if the "numbers" (shoot days, editing hours, equipment), corroborate, that this would be in the "norm" for this kind of thing.

talk to ya soon.
 
Thanks for the note - I didn't see your response until after I had crafted this point by point defense of my earlier response. Cool. Glad I could help out. Best of luck!

colormeter said:
An individual who asks about the general rates in this industry probably doesn't do this kind of work full time and probably doesn't have more than six months behind a prosumer camera...
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Hmmm. My estimate is that he has 7.5 months behind a semi-prosumer camera and 3 months behind a quasi-consumer camera. But it hardly matters. I agree that you should charge less if you are new and need the experience, but I also know of lots of people who's first project is as professional and successful as can be. (Orson Welles, Robert Rodriguez, Jack Daniel Stanley..)

colormeter said:
The author who contacted this video person, did so, most likely, knowing that they were green, and therefore more affordable than an established company.
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Umm. Perhaps. Or maybe they know him as a successful business or advertising professional, someone they trust to do a great job. Even if he is green, $3000 for a fully produced 10-minute program is still too low. Try $8000 at least.

colormeter said:
The kind of person who trusts a newbie with a documentary (i.e. - writing, storytelling) project is obviously looking for a bargain and therefore not terribly concerned with the quality or outcome of the project -or- they are incredibly concerned and will therefore be let down in a big way. In either case, that's not the kind of project I'd want to be involved in....
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Really disagree with your logic here. Clients always are concerned with quality. No one sets out to produce crap. And I assume Filmshoot has no intention of disappointing his client. You may assume that he cannot do a good job for his client. I predict he'll blow them away.

colormeter said:
Plus, there's no way some small time author is gonna pay $1K a minute for a video when his only plans for the video are 500 burnable DVD's (only half the amount required for replication and silk screening!)
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It happens every day. Years ago I produced my first freelance project, a 5-minute vanity project for an author/consultant. He paid nearly $10k for it and he absolutley loved it. (Even though I was a newbie producer who should not have been allowed to 'command' that price for my services.) He made 5 vhs copies and sent them to his biggest clients and speaker's bureau. He made his money back almost instantly with speaking engagements and consulting projects.

In other words, go for it! Do a pro job. Deliver what you promise. Charge pro rates. If you are new to any aspect of the production, then make sure to hire a freelance professional to cover for you in those areas. (A good producer knows where he needs help.) Work from a contract and get paid. I agree with colormeter about staying away from grinders, but working from a clear contract with clear project parameters will usually stop the grinders from grinding. Someone once said this would be a great business if we just didn't have to deal with clients. Oh well, that's capitalism, baby! Have fun! :)
 
pmgmedia said:
In other words, go for it! Do a pro job. Deliver what you promise. Charge pro rates. If you are new to any aspect of the production, then make sure to hire a freelance professional to cover for you in those areas. (A good producer knows where he needs help.) Work from a contract and get paid. I agree with colormeter about staying away from grinders, but working from a clear contract with clear project parameters will usually stop the grinders from grinding. Someone once said this would be a great business if we just didn't have to deal with clients. Oh well, that's capitalism, baby! Have fun! :)
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Well said.
 
Whoa, hold up! Based on my experience, you guys are WRONG!!!

This is independent filmmaking, not car commercials. You cannot apply the rates you charge scumbag dealership owners and fat corporations to some guy who wants to make an indy movie. The indy movie would be lucky to make back a few grand and in most cases will lose money. So, my advice is to either take the job because you care about the project or need the experience, and realize you're going to make a lot less than a car commercial, wedding video, or whatever. You will almost NEVER get any indy film work charging more than $3-5k unless the client is rich and/or a complete moron. Those types do exist but are not the norm.

By indy film, I mean real micro-budgeted stuff, $20k and (considerably) under, non-union, non-Hollywood stuff.

If this client has a big book deal with a major NY publisher, that's different. If it's some guy who is self-publishing or going through a small press, my advice applies.
 
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Jim Duggins said:
Whoa, hold up! Based on my experience, you guys are WRONG!!!

This is independent filmmaking, not car commercials. You cannot apply the rates you charge scumbag dealership owners and fat corporations to some guy who wants to make an indy movie. The indy movie would be lucky to make back a few grand and in most cases will lose money. So, my advice is to either take the job because you care about the project or need the experience, and realize you're going to make a lot less than a car commercial, wedding video, or whatever. You will almost NEVER get any indy film work charging more than $3-5k unless the client is rich and/or a complete moron. Those types do exist but are not the norm.

By indy film, I mean real micro-budgeted stuff, $20k and (considerably) under, non-union, non-Hollywood stuff.

If this client has a big book deal with a major NY publisher, that's different. If it's some guy who is self-publishing or going through a small press, my advice applies.
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[updated]
My advice still stands. Do pro work, charge pro rates. Feel free to donate your services or reduce your rates to do projects that merit it, such as non-profits or personal causes. Just don't base your business on 'pay what you can afford and I'll do it.' Those are the grinders - the clients whose jobs you work on for more and more hours for less pay. You will quickly become desperate and frustrated with each new client if you let them determine how much you charge.

Still, I am talking about business here, not fun. Do indy film projects for fun, not the money. This author is doing a promotional video, right? He is intending to use it for business purposes, right? It is not an indie feature we are talking about. It is a business proposal and you are a video professional with a track record and access to professional production and post facilities.

Just my 2 cents. I have shot and produced my share of no budget indie projects. I love them too.
 
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Great way to welcome a new member to the board, PMG. Jim's advice comes from his experience. He's not flaming you, man.
 
Welcome Jim, need to work on those diplomatic skills a bit :)

I don't see there is a wrong or right here. If someone has to ask what to charge then clearly they shouldn't be charging or making bids based on established professional standards. But that is his call. If he charges the same as the pros he better be able to deliver the same quality and in the same timely manner as those pros. If he can't then he should be honest with his client about his abilities but offer a "bargin" price.

OTOH, I don't see this as an "indy filmmaking". Honestly, this is more in the category of commercials/industrial video. Call it what you want, but it sounds (and I could be wrong) more like a commercial done in a documentary style (not the first time this has been done). That is certainly for Filmshoot to figure out for himself but from the info giving that is what it sounds like to me.

Either way, I fail to see a wrong or right answer here but a vacuum of information of which to make an informed decision on.

Cheers
 
LOL. I missed whatever PMG edited out of his post that raised the ruckus...

Didn't mean to offend anyone, this issue just hits close to home and burns me up, is all--based on my personal experience.

In this particular instance--the proposed author doco--without more info, it's hard to know what to charge. But yes, as others said, do indie films for fun and the experience, not big bucks. If you're not willing to take a pay cut, then don't do 'em.
 
wabbit said:
If someone has to ask what to charge then clearly they shouldn't be charging or making bids based on established professional standards.
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Exactly. I'm just not sure if professional rates from a relative newcomer is a sustainable business model...
 
Jim Duggins said:
Whoa, hold up! Based on my experience, you guys are WRONG!!!

This is independent filmmaking, not car commercials. You cannot apply the rates you charge scumbag dealership owners and fat corporations to some guy who wants to make an indy movie. The indy movie would be lucky to make back a few grand and in most cases will lose money. So, my advice is to either take the job because you care about the project or need the experience, and realize you're going to make a lot less than a car commercial, wedding video, or whatever. You will almost NEVER get any indy film work charging more than $3-5k unless the client is rich and/or a complete moron. Those types do exist but are not the norm.

By indy film, I mean real micro-budgeted stuff, $20k and (considerably) under, non-union, non-Hollywood stuff.

If this client has a big book deal with a major NY publisher, that's different. If it's some guy who is self-publishing or going through a small press, my advice applies.
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Welcome Jim. Nice first post - coming in and just outright saying WRONG. May I suggest in future you simply state your own opinion. No one cares that people have differing opinions, people care when from your perspective - your life experience you decide to call people wrong. What PMG stated was a fair and valid opinion, one that I happen to share. That doesnt make it right for everyone, but nonetheless is fair and valid and shouldnt be subjected to attack.

The original poster did say this guy didnt have much money, now what is exactly not much money? Cant pull $10K from his 5 mill share portfolio or living week to week. I stand by my opnion, now its up to the original poster to make what he wants to of all this. Even if I were willing to do a cheaper job for someone because of xyz, my first quote would be a pro quote. Discussion can ensue from there.
 
kyle.presley said:
Great way to welcome a new member to the board, PMG. Jim's advice comes from his experience. He's not flaming you, man.
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Fair enough to give good advice especially from someone with experience. But calling someone wrong is not the appropriate position to take IMO.
 
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