302 mixer with DVX question

G

Gregg

Well-known member
I know when I just use a microphone plugged directly into my DVX I let the sound go 3 bars into the red.

When setting tone for setting up the 302 mixer do you set it a few bars into the red (on the DVX meter) or do you set the levels just to the point before the red bars begin?
 
The point were they begin should be -12 on the dvx, so if you set your odb tone (from the 302) to -12 (on the dvx), you can let the audio bounce into the first orange led on the 302 (+4) which corresponds to peaking above -12 to -8 which is a good place to start for average levels. That way you have some headroom on the 302 if the peaks even go as high as +8 (-4 on the dvx). If you set it up this way, the 302s limiters will not engage in time to save you from peaks with their stock settings (+20 default) so you need to change them to engage at +12 (I think). You could also just set the 0db for - 20 on the dvx, but there is no bar there, so that is not what I do (I also don't like to turn my mixer up that high since the dials are almost pegged and I am seeing red lights all of the time on the 302). I don't like it.
 
good suggestion, thats how i run my mixer with the 302. to be honest, i leave my limiters at around -12 most times. i like to play things safe.
 
You mean you have your limiter at +12 right... not -12 on the 302?


Your levels will be really low in post if you don't see any reds in the DVX meter. I like to see 3 reds in the DVX, but I avoid 4. This will give you moderately hot levels.

Since you have a 302 you have a really valuable tool to take advantage of now... so I'd set the DVX to what they call "full scale tone" in the 302 owner's manual. This is done with the 302 part of the audio chain... not the DVX. I could explain it thoroughly here, but if you have the manual you should read it anyway... the software setup utilities are something you should get to know.

In the DVX the first red is the -12db point... and all the way red is 0db... so for the best sound and most dynamic range you should set the DVX dials to 12 o'clock... then gaffer tape them down (unless you have a new DVX and won't bump the levels off setting)... then set the 302 via full scale tone and output level adjust until just before the last red bar lights in the DVX lcd.

Now you have maximum dynamic range and the 302's limiters will guarantee that you don't ever clip levels running into the DVX... and the best part is now all you have to do is watch levels on the 302.
 
Might be some mixup here.

Setting with 0dB tone from SD302 no reds should light up in DVX, it is about the next to last white as the first red is -12 digital scale (+8 dB in SD302).

More accurate is to use full scale tone (+20 dB in SD302 and 0 dB digital in DVX)like Mattin says, you can adjust that to exactly 0 digital scale in DVX (last red). With the SD302 limiter on (I have it kick in at +17 dB SD302 scale or -3 dB DVX scale) this prevents the possibility of overload in DVX (unless you drive SD302 much too hard).

Setting the output line level from SD302 a bit lower you can adjust these so that the dials in DVX are at about 12 o'cloc. Have to do it via setup menu. Normal output from SD302 is on the hot side and might overdrive DVX preamps. This was covered by Oleg a while back.

Finally; recording real signals to DVX you shoud hit the first 3-4 reds with strong signal. The fifth never.

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It is stupid we still have to use two conflicting dB scales which make things hard to comprehend to us beginners. As all recorders are digital nowerdays why do we still have old analog VU scales in mixers like SD302?
 
yup matt, +12my bad.

I dont use full scale because I just dont ever work that way. And I'm totally agreed that having two separate scales for mixer and camera is daft nowadays. anybody shooting beta a lot? I know Im not.

Line up should really be much simpler. Its ridiculous that everyone has their own style.. its nice to talk about, but if line ups were as simple as telling a mixer to output at mic level, -10dB line, or +4dB line (depending on the camera) and then calibrating 0dBFS at camera to 0dBFS on mixer life would be a lot simpler.

I believe the PSC mixers feature dBFS scales?
 
petrus - last white dot on the DVX is the -12 isnt it? its the white one with a line through it. Reds work their way from -10 to 0 dont they? (open to correction, just remember it that way)
 
Have to check, but using the full scale +20dBVU/0 dB digital is the safest and most foolproof way of setting the levels and then glueing the dials shut on DVX... It really does not reflect in any way to the way we work.
 
Are you sure "full scale tone" means the FULL SCALE must be lit?

I think it just means that the output of the 302 is set to match the input of the next device (DVX, recorder, whatever) based on the clip point which is set in the 302.

Meaning that if you set +12db as the limiter point (as Tim has his) that you can set the output of the 302, in "full scale" mode, to match the input of the next device in the audio chain... by setting the DVX (or whatever) to JUST BELOW it's own clipping point... by adjusting the output of the 302 rather then the other device (because it's outputting tone at the limit prior to clip)... then you can simply watch the 302 meters and ride hot levels with no chance of clipping.

Did that make sense? Am I wrong about this?
 
I am not sure if that is right, but I was always confused as to the way the "full scale" works.

The other thing I want to confirm is that if I set the 0db tone on the mixer to -12db on the hvx or dvx, am I supposed to set the limiters on the 302 to +12 or something different so that they kick in in time to save the clip (or do the kick in exactly where you set them as I have always assumed so +12 is perfect). Also should you live the limiters in the hvx or dvx too?
 
As I understand it "full scale" on SD302 is +20 dBVU level. If you set it at the last red just lighting up on DVX you have a match. Meaning that if you drive SD302 over, DVX will also be over. Also meaning that by not letting SD302 get over there is absolutelly no chance of DVX clipping either. Setting the limiter on SD302 to somewhere near +17 dB doubly ensures that (it is of course still possible to overdrive SD302 but that is an operator error).

That was the way I set my system (and by lowering the SD302 output by 4 dB from the menu, now my dials on DVX are at 11 o'clock). Sounds good, my first take (2 hour nonstop dialog) was pefect, top level coughing at -1.7 dB digital.

The normal tone you get from SD302 is 0 dBVU which should be -20 dB digital on the DVX (second white before red?). If you set it to -12 dB digital (first red) you will get clipping when the SD302 meters hit +12 or over. Unless you set the limiter on SD302 to kick in really early. Which really is not the way these things are designed to work.
 
If I set my 302 0db to -20 on the hvx then I need to turn the mic pots way up (almost all the way to get good levels for speech. Isn't that annoying??

I also like to have my levels peaking over -12 up to -8 or even -4 on occasion if someone gets really excited (on the hvx) The 302 has leds for
-30 -26 -22 -20 -18 -16 -14 -12 -10 -8 -6 -4 -2 0 +4 +8 +12 +16 +20
This means that the "resolution" of the display is lower once you get above 0db since the leds are double value. It would be harder to keep the peaks above +12 but below +16 with only one light to do it with. I may be crazy, but it seems skewed to me. I do like the point you make about setting your limiters to +17 in you "0db=-20" system. That means I should set my limiters to +9 right?
 
Petrus said:
As I understand it "full scale" on SD302 is +20 dBVU level. If you set it at the last red just lighting up on DVX you have a match. Meaning that if you drive SD302 over, DVX will also be over. Also meaning that by not letting SD302 get over there is absolutelly no chance of DVX clipping either. Setting the limiter on SD302 to somewhere near +17 dB doubly ensures that (it is of course still possible to overdrive SD302 but that is an operator error).
Click to expand...

Yeah... I dunno' man... I don't think SD intended people to rely on the low resolution part of the meter as "normal operation". I think the term "full scale" is interchangeable with "clipping level"... which can be set by the user. The fact that you can leave the clipping level at +20db (factory default) and also set everything to litterally use the full scale of the meter... well, I think that terminology is misleading.

If the clipping levels match... and the limiter is set to come in at that point... then I think the end result is the same either way. I've never seen any pro soundguy using his 442 or 302 so that in normal use it's getting close to +20db on the meter... I use the 442 so that it rarely kisses the first red led with my normal peaks hitting about +6db.

Since the output is variable and the clipping level is variable then I'm sure you can tweak any number of combinations to get the same result... but I agree that I'd rather have the bulk of my monitoring in the fine resolution part of the meter... If I had a PA watching the mixer on a low-to-no budget job I'd tell him to "aim for orange", then I'd set the limiter to come in around +12db.
 
what matter in settings that your mixer wil chanl first before you input recorder device
some mixers dont pull obver 18dbu for 600 ohm and some can deliver 28 dbu
the 302 deliver 20 dbu to 600
so full scale tone , atunuation for 2-4 db on its output then leveling the dbfs scale for 0dbfs will bring you about to the point you will never clip dvx /hvx input stage befor the mixer , even you will be full 20 db signal
put the limiters at +16 and you wil have maximum 20 dbu even on crazy picks

the limiters which usially had been on priviues models where alot lower to get maximum recording level on analog devices where it was much important run as close to the end get less tape hiss what was involved with sucrefing dynamic range , so the limters was set about the 6-8 db over the oVU
so we could get much more on the quet part of the dialog .
With digital recording that problem is not exist so you can get more dynamic
+4 dbu or 0dbu for-20/-18 dbfs (depends on the standart ) is about wher you need to calibrate your equipment , the dialog have more dynamic then evereg jazz show ,so +6-10 picks everge( about -1 - +2 vu) still live you
with10db for unexpected , much better then it was in nagra days .

by the way you can program your 20 db led will glow as you reach level you think is good and ride the levels this way help you to prevent hit the limiters to much .
 
by the way these who desided on the deviding db scale with 4db apart on sd 302 did ousy job as they did on 744 as well ( and that is not the only f,,they did)
 
So you would advise to set the limiter for +16db... set the 302 to full tone... then adjust the output until the DVX is 1 bar away from all reds lit with the dials at 12 o'clock? Then at that point in normal monitoring you would suggest aiming for peaks of about +12db I guess? Or would you have the 302 VU metering going to +16 clipping (and/or above)?

I agree about the 302 meter... why do we need that much res between -30 and -24... if they refused to add more LEDS then it would have been nice to see the res focused in the area that I see the most... which is -10 to +10... or at least -8 to +8.

For me so far it doesn't matter too much since my pro work is EFP type of stuff... but if I actually mixed something with any dialog staying under -10db then I'd never get called back.
 
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