Panasonic Introduces AG-HSC1U, World’s Smallest Professional 3-CCD HD Camcorder

vsansal said:
How did you make this bitrate match?
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AVC-HD is a scalable codec -- you can choose anywhere from about 6 megabits on up to about 24 megabits, depending on what the manufacturers allow. For some reason (which may be due to encoder chip technology, I'm not sure) they've currently limited it to about 13 megabits max.

The review from camcorderinfo.com describes the performance "Compared to HDV, it underperforms just like the UX1. The Sony HDR-HC3 had less noise and a slightly brighter color pallet. The Canon HV10 remains the best picture in bright light of any consumer HD camcorder so far – bold, beautiful colors and hardly a hint of noise."
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Okay, first of all -- you're not comparing a format against a format. You're comparing so many different variables there that it's almost impossible to specify what difference is due to what -- you're having CCD compared against CMOS, Sony HDV compared against Canon HDV, etc.

I am not talking about the camera heads. So far there's no camera head worthy of the format. I'm talking solely about the recording format. When I was at Government Video Expo, the camera engineers at Panasonic said, and those who saw the screening of 8-megabit AVC-HD at earlier shows agreed, it is a toe-to-toe-match for 25-megabits of HDV.

So with 15Mbps bitrate AVC-HD obviously underperforms compared to HDV.
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Not so. First, SimplyDV's review shows the AVC-HD Panasonic smoking the Sony easily. But second, you're still comparing different formats and different technologies. I contend that if someone produced a camcorder that records to HDV, and the exact same camcorder in an AVC-HD version, the AVC-HD version would be noticeably better. I expect that Canon will actually do that, since they're a member of both the AVC-HD and HDV consortium.

So if you are right than there are major workflow issues with AVC-HD and what I don't understand is why are they rushing a technology that is still not ready.
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Yes there are workflow issues -- no major editing program supports it yet. But when JVC launched the HD1, no major editing program supported it until over two years after release! At least with AVC-HD several of the major companies have joined the coalition even before it launched; Adobe and Canopus and Ulead and Sony Vegas are all part of it. Canopus already has a solution out that lets you edit in EDIUS, and Sony's going to have Vegas out "this Spring" with an update that supports AVC-HD.

Everyone is expecting to see a 24Mbps AVC-HD camcorder to compare it to HDV but maybe the reason they are not marketing a 24Mbps AVC-HD camcorder is because HDV can still perform better.
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Not possible -- 25 megabits of HDV vs. 24 megabits of AVC-HD? AVC would blow it away. I would instead think that they aren't marketing the higher bandwidth version either a) because they don't have a camera head that would make that much of a difference, or b) because they don't have an encoding chip that can handle that higher bandwidth effectively yet.
 
Barry_Green said:
AVC-HD is a scalable codec -- you can choose anywhere from about 6 megabits on up to about 24 megabits, depending on what the manufacturers allow. For some reason (which may be due to encoder chip technology, I'm not sure) they've currently limited it to about 13 megabits max.
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I am not talking about variable bitrate of AVC-HD. You are saying that "8 megabits of AVC-HD about matches 25 megabits of HDV for quality. 13 megabits of AVC-HD should substantially surpass HDV" How do you come up with this?

Barry_Green said:
Okay, first of all -- you're not comparing a format against a format. You're comparing so many different variables there that it's almost impossible to specify what difference is due to what -- you're having CCD compared against CMOS, Sony HDV compared against Canon HDV, etc.
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I am talking about sony HDR-HC3 vs HDR-S1. They both have the same imaging sensor, a 1/3” ClearVID CMOS sensor. The only difference being one uses HDV compression and the other AVC-HD.


Barry_Green said:
Not so. First, SimplyDV's review shows the AVC-HD Panasonic smoking the Sony easily. But second, you're still comparing different formats and different technologies. I contend that if someone produced a camcorder that records to HDV, and the exact same camcorder in an AVC-HD version, the AVC-HD version would be noticeably better. I expect that Canon will actually do that, since they're a member of both the AVC-HD and HDV consortium.
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Thats what I am trying to explain. The camcorderinfo.com review supports what I say:

"The Sony HDR-SR1 and HDR-HC3 are closely related camcorders. Both record HD video, and both employ Sony’s ClearVID CMOS sensor – an imager that yields excellent HD resolution color. The biggest difference between the two camcorders is in their video compression, and this has a direct bearing on their performance. The tape-based HDR-HC3 using HDV compression while the HDR-SR1 uses the newer AVCHD format. While these camcorders both produce very good-looking HD video, we think HDV compression yields a superior image. This is likely a result of the higher 25Mbps data rate of HDV versus 12Mbps for this AVCHD camcorder"

Barry_Green said:
Yes there are workflow issues -- no major editing program supports it yet. But when JVC launched the HD1, no major editing program supported it until over two years after release! At least with AVC-HD several of the major companies have joined the coalition even before it launched; Adobe and Canopus and Ulead and Sony Vegas are all part of it. Canopus already has a solution out that lets you edit in EDIUS, and Sony's going to have Vegas out "this Spring" with an update that supports AVC-HD.
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The workflow issues I am pointing is not Post Production related but directly related to compression technique.

Barry_Green said:
Not possible -- 25 megabits of HDV vs. 24 megabits of AVC-HD? AVC would blow it away. I would instead think that they aren't marketing the higher bandwidth version either a) because they don't have a camera head that would make that much of a difference, or b) because they don't have an encoding chip that can handle that higher bandwidth effectively yet.
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Everyone expecting to see this comparison including me.
 
What I think Barry Green is trying to say is that it comes down to how well you make the camcorders for example, 13MBPS of the Panasonic being a lot better than the 15 to 16MBPS of the SR1.

Plus the 13MBPS of Panasonic newest AVCHD camcorder may be a whole lot better than the 13MBPS of Panasonic’s earlier camcorders. As AVCHD camcorders advances, 13MBPS will definitely look as good as or better than HDV.
 
Camera Expert said:
As AVCHD camcorders advances, 13MBPS will definitely look as good as or better than HDV.
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What is that advancement? If it needs advancement why did they start marketing it in the first place.
 
vsansal said:
What is that advancement? If it needs advancement why did they start marketing it in the first place.
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What I meant was that future AVCHD camcorders will be much better at handling H.264 than current models. This is why Panasonic released consumer versions first.
The 13MBPS of this yet to be released camcorder may actually be better than HDV.
 
Read the last three posts of this thread. The Pal version of Panasonic's AVCHD camcorder is said to be nearly as sharp as the Canon XH-A1.
http://pana3ccduser.com/showthread.php?t=14191
If Panasonic’s PAL AVCHD camcorder is almost as good as HDV, then the possibility of Panasonic's newest camcorder being better than HDV may end up being right after all. I can’t wait until it’s released.






Sorry if I’m not allowed to post a thread from another forum.
 
TimurCivan said:
yea but just like HDV, theres Good HDV (canon) and Bad HDV (sony FX1). perhaps the codec isnt well implimented yet.
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I'm also curious why you consider the HDV implementation on the FX1 to be worse than the Canon. They both use the same 15 GOP pattern.
 
Camera Expert said:
Remember to download samples of the HC3 and the DX1 to see how Panasonic’s Pal AVCHD compares to the HC3.
http://www.fxsupport.de/17.html
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But those camcorders are from different manufacturers with different specs. What I am saying is if DX1 had a brother with HDV compression maybe it would perform better like sony hc3 performs better than HDR-S1
 
but that has nothing to do with the compression format itself... H.264 is higher quality bitrate to bitrate. HDV "compression" is based on much older technology. MPEG-2 is just not the same when the bitrates line up.

look at those nasty blu-ray discs coming out in MPEG-2... everyone is loving the HD DVDs right now since they are all encoded to H.264 (kinda) and they just appear to be better looking.

25 mbits/s HDV vs. 24 mbits/s AVCHD should be a pretty wide margin if all things are the same. it's too bad we can't just test it out from taking video from any ol' source and throwing it to each format at the same bit rate... o well. for AVCHD to be interesting to me, someone has to design a camera around it that compares to the "big boys". :)
 
The whole thing with AVC HD depends on just how good the encoder chips are at this point. As its been said, h.264 is a more complex algorithm and takes more effort to encode/decode.

It's all very promising but I think we may be a ways off before we see AVC HD work will in the real world with *real* cameras. Current HDV implementations from Canon and JVC are fairly robust, so I personally believe AVC HD will only be marginally better in challenging material.

Timur is right though, all HDV is not created equal. Canon and JVC have better encoders right now.
 
They have the SD1 setup in little advertising booths here in Tokyo, there is a 50 inch tv and some brightly colored moving item with an SD1, HD10, HC3 and an SD camera all pointing at the same subject matter. You push buttons to switch cameras and see the difference live. The SD1 looks much better and I've seen it in 3 different setups.

On another positive note, they are selling 8gb SD cards over here, so larger P2 cards should be moving along faster..
 
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Can you mount a mini35 and a mattebox to this thing?

It may look like a pop can but it might work well in a rig-type setup.

As well, this thread should be moved to the News section. I did a search and nothing showed up.
 
Ok so can this thing mount on a tripod? It appears so small it might not have a plate???

What about the Mic's it is supposed to have some super duper Mic array.. How am I to get good sound with this camera?

Im used to the "old"? standard of xlr inputs in my dvx100a

Also im interested in the Neutral density filter deal. does it have one if so is it auto or what?

Anyone know? Thanks
 
Fred_Plowman said:
Ok so can this thing mount on a tripod? It appears so small it might not have a plate???

What about the Mic's it is supposed to have some super duper Mic array.. How am I to get good sound with this camera?
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I’ve tested the camcorder without a tripod and with a tripod.
Yes, there is a standard microphone input.
 
Looks like these bad boys are shipping.. I am dreaming of how cool my stormchasing video is going to look.. Tornado in Hi Def up close and personal.
 
Hey Fred - Long time, no see posts from...

Sounds like you're getting it just in time for tornado season. :thumbsup:
 
Hey Terry ,

Great to hear from you. yep seasons already started.. Seen some great action on February 28th in eastern kansas.. been on a few chases already with no luck in Nebraska and Iowa.

Now Im kind of concerned about my new cam I just ordered. Looks like panny is doing a new update to the cam already. SD1 was just released (commercial version) now they are replacing it with another updated cam using a somewhat different codec..

Im scared.
 
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