1k vs 2k lights for night shoot? Tips??

B

borax

Active member
Hi,

I have an upcoming low budget HD shoot coming up and I am getting nervous about how to light the night scenes.

This will be the first time I am trying to light locations at night and am looking for some advice on what kind of kit I should rent or buy.

I want to avoid calling attention to the lighting and create a low key look. Its important that the lighting have lots of shadows (but not be "too dark") and look as natural as it can with only a few lights.

I already own 1- 650w Arri Fresnel, 1- Kino 400 Diva, 3- 250w Lowel Pro and 2 500w Lowel Tota Lights.

In various posts, I have read that to get the most bang its best to use 1k or 2k Par (Open Face) lights to throw a wide beam to cover large areas of the background. Also its important to get the lights as high as possible to light the ground behind the actors to get a "moon light" effect, and use another light as an edge light to further seperate the actors from the background.

So far so good? Right??

With that idea in mind I am wondering if it is better to go with 1 or 2K lights?

Since this is a small budget I might be able to afford a few more 1k lights if I go that way, or should I just focus on 2k for the greater output?

I intend to power the lights with a honda generator like the EU3000is. How many 1ks vs 2ks can I power off of a single gererator?

Also what would be your opinion of using soft light sources (like my kino, or a china lantern) at night?

And finally would it make more sense to go with alternative lighting like HID or Fluorescent bulbs to get more light off of less power?

If anything I have written seems off base please let me know.

Any advice would be great
thanks!
 
The answer to this really depends on factors like field of view and just how much you want to see and how much depth you need to add.

Lighting a tree outside a window is a lot different than lighting a wide scene in a park.

I've been on Musco light shows, with literally hundreds of thousands of watts that light everything.

On the smaller, yet still effective end, I did a very well-produced reality shoot last year where we suspended a 575 HMI china ball over a campfire to suggest moonlight from above.

The resulting effect was great. The large fire provided an orange-ish fill, but all the trees surrounding the campsite had a nice blue moonlight cast that was just indirect enough to look plausible.

I'd err on the side of 2k. I think you'll be surprised at how little you get over a larger area from larger fixtures. If you have a lot of night exteriors, you should consider renting two or three Jokers - maybe two 200s and two 400s. They'll go a lot farther than double their weight and investment in purchased tungsten fixtures.

Good luck.

e
 
Good advice from Erik.
Also; look at the recent threads for the Alzo HID lights in this lighting section.
You might just get away with a few 150W HID lights.
 
That Honda generator you mention is rated 2800W. So you can load it with one 2k and one 650w arri, or two 1k + 650w Arri.
 
If you decide to rent HMI's, make sure they have electronic ballasts. The older, magnetic ones may produce flicker from a genny.
 
I agree with all the above, rent HMIs with flicker free (electronic) ballasts. A single 1.2k with the right lens can cover an amazing area compared to a similar sized tungsten source CTBed to read correctly. The difference with the filtration can be nearly 8:1 in favor of the HMI. The best way to get it to read as natural is to keep your instrument(s) back a good distance so that it begins to emulate natural lighting and doesn't have a large difference between the fore and background level of illumination. You really can't do better than a nice sized HMI for your application.
 
As far as your generator goes, how many amps does it produce? That will determine what you can plug into it.

If you want "natural" looking moonlight, you'll need an HMI as either a bounced source or direct source from a great distance. For instance, you'll have access most easily to 1200W PAR HMIs or a 4K PAR (I'm keeping in mind the budget).

White balance your HD camera to Tungsten (2800K) and your HMI in its natural state should closely resemble moonlight.

Throw it as far away from your talent as humanly possible, and stick it up as far in the sky as you can, safely. This will give you long, even shadows to create some depth.

I'll assume your talent is moving around a lot, and therefor the flooded HMI will not provide the illumination you need to see the talent (keep in mind that for the HMI to look like "natural" moonlight, your exposure readings should be anywhere from -2 to -4 stops... set your meter to 320 ISO, as that is roughly the sensitivity of all video cameras).

To illuminate your talent further, take that Kino of yours and throw it directly above your talent, anywhere from 5 to 10 feet straight up (you'll need to build a grid of some sort). Cover the Kino with 1/4 to full CTB (depending on your preference) and you should have a very even, contrasty moonlight with enough fill to find the definition in your actors faces while creating a rim around their hairlines, defining their edges from that of your background.

That being said... the bigger ther HMI you get, the better it will look.

I had a 12K HMI bounced in to a 20ftx20ft Griff a couple months ago, and it was STILL too dark.

Play around with it, though. It's the only way you'll discover what looks great.
 
So it sounds like HMI lights are the best way to go. Thanks for the input!

I have heard that Jokers are great lights and would love to use them. Any idea what they would rent for for a week or two?

How many 200 or 400 Jokers could I run off of a Honda EU3000is generator with its 2800Watts? Also would I be able to power a 4k HMI off of this?


If I went with tungsten would I have to CTB the light, or could I just white balance to something that would turn the color blueish without losing output?
 
You'll need a Honda 6500 watt genny at least. When your renting a portable genny.. more is more...The difference between a 3000 watt(2800 in this case) and a 6500watt should only be a matter of around $ 25-30 bucks...go bigger.
No, you will not be able to fire up a 12k with it...You'll need a genny truck for that...
 
All the information below is LA market rental prices.

A weekly on a JokerBug is 200W is 3x the day rate of $120, a 400W is 3x the day rate of $140. A weekly on a 1.2k with an electronic ballast is 3x the day rate of $120, the weekly on a 2.5k is 3x the day rate of $170 and a 4k weekly is 3x the day rate of $215.

Get a real genny if you are going with bigger instruments. You will also need some real copper so rent distro as well. To safely get a larger instrument up high enough to look like moonlight, rent a crakovator or a super crankovator.

For things bigger than a 4k you will need serious distro and a genny with camlocks. By the time you get to a production that needs this sort of hardware, you really should be thinking about getting a real gaffer on the project. These things are expensive and can be dangerous if you don't know what your doing.

If you need any real specifics, feel free to PM me and I will be happy to assist.
 
khmuse,

thanks for the rental rates. I really want to try and keep things as simple as possible with the lighting at the same time maximize the output.

Most of the scenes will be at night in the woods, which is probably the worst location for lighting becase its hard to get to and contains no practical sources or power supplies.

The crew will be minimal so I am not sure how many people will be on hand to setup.

After reading the responses, I am thinking a 2.5k (if its enough?) or 4k HMI placed far away pointed to the ground behind the actors and a smaller joker HMI to act as a fill might be the most stripped down I can take things with still getting enough light and seperation.

Both lights could be powered by smaller honda gennys because I can transport them in a car or truck (and I can get 2 of them). I will look into a crankovator for getting the background light as high as possible.

What do you think?
 
I think if your are resourceful you should be just fine. A 2.5k is a pretty impressive instrument, it will make more light than you might think. A 200W or 400W JokerBug will do just fine for your talent. If its in pretty close you will have more than enough for a key and fill (via bounce) with a single 400W source. Make certain that you have some basic grip equipment (wire scrims for all sources, nets, flags & silks) so you can have some control.

If you have a location site survey set of photos, post them along with your shot notes and I or someone here can give it a look to see if anything becomes obvious that you might need to address.

Get two generators and really good sized copper. The 2.5k will need a bit over 20 Amps so make certain that the genny has a breakered output that will accommodate that sort of current (30 Amp). A 4k is really too big for these smaller gennys. Depending upon the logistics of the location, you might be able to get away with two sources for your moonlight (using a pair of 1.2ks) if you can position them so that you don't create double (or more) shadows (a dead give away!).
 
"After reading the responses, I am thinking a 2.5k (if its enough?) or 4k HMI placed far away pointed to the ground behind the actors and a smaller joker HMI to act as a fill might be the most stripped down I can take things with still getting enough light and seperation. "


If I may add something to all of this.... Keep in mind that the trees will eat up your light very quickly.

Also, a 2.5k HMI will use 25 to 35 amps (at 120v) depending on the make and model of the ballast. Like others have said, plan on having more than enough power available and you'll be in a better spot when you end up running long lines from the generator because of audio, adding more lights because it's a bit darker than you wanted, etc. Some people mistakingly rate power needs in watts as opposed to amps. It's important to remember to use amperage as your measurement, especially when dealing with lights other than tungsten.

-John
 
If it's a no-budget production, let me suggest a different approach. Ditch all this and do Day-For-Night if possible. Keep the sky out of the shot, tint the shot blue, and -- well, experiment, but you should be able to get a reasonably convincing shot without all the hassle.
 
Day-For-Night can work OK for a few scenes, but if the bulk of your film is going to be shot in a forest you will have to restrict your location choices to places where you can stay under the canopy of the trees to have it sell. The other problem I see with this is you mentioned wanting a low key look with a bit of rim light to separate your talent from a very dark background. This too would be hard to pull off in a day-for-night approach.

All the above aside, Barry could be right on target and it might work for your shots and your locations, but it seems kind of restrictive to me and it won't set the tone and mood for your talent's performances either if that is important to the story line you want.

Whichever approach you take, test everything first. Don't show up on set with your talent and crew and try to wing it without doing some testing first.
 
borax,
you mention a shoot in the woods. A lot of what has been suggested here is almost fit for a full-scale, big production. A 2.5k HMI, a 4k HMI, a 12k HMI running off generators? That's quite the set-up! Nice for sure, but is it necessary?
All this will HUGELY DEPEND on the scene and the mood you want to achieve. Do you REALLY need all this light? Barry mentions a good alternative, that could work well with a bit of creative thinking/planning.
And if you want to go with lights, DEPENDING ON THE SCENE & CIRCUMSTANCE, you might be able to get away with FAR less light than has been suggested. A couple of battery powered lights might be all you need. A 150W HID light puts out a lot of light; is lightweight and can be powered off a battery with an inverter.
Yes, an HMI is almost always a nice addition, but it really isn't always practical and mostly never cheap or convenient in remote locations. The heads aren't particularly lightweight and getting them up high therefore requires quite a rig. If, on the other hand, your light isn't heavy (a few pounds) you could even use a Bogen/Manfrotto lightstand. They make them as high as 24ft/7.3m! That's almost as high as the moon itself I think! :)
 
Vidled, I don't think he ever planned on using a 12k. It was mentioned by another member as to what he did on a recent shoot.
A 1200 par hmi from a mombo combo stand (lookup www.msegrip.com then go to Hollywood stands ) might be high enough, depending on your shot. Use ropes to tie off the stand when it is set at it's highest point. Attach the ropes near the base of the light in 3 postions. Use several sand bags to reinforce the legs.
Use plenty of stingers (ext,cords) to keep the genny far away as possible for sound issues. You can use the genny you first mentioned for this 1200. Use an additional genny for your other lights . Use a couple of 400 jokers or Alzo lights for actors and it you can afford it, an additional 200 joker for fill light/edge light or background light. You might be able to get away with your kino, if you have daylight bulbs, to use as a fill light, but it would be just out of frame on your shots.
Like I mentioned in another thread about night lighting, is there any possible way you can work a light source into your story ? Like a car, I know your shooting in the woods, but can your actors leave their car nearby, of course with the lights on, to penetrate the woods, and provide backlight / edgelight for your actors ? Or give them flashlights to light their own way. Add a couple of daylight light balanced chinese lanterns(cheap,cheap) to bring up the overall brightness, so you don't get too much noise in your blacks. Just thinking out loud....Good luck.
 
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If you want to go the day-for-night route, remember that you are not obligated to use only natural light. A few well placed smaller HMIs can supplement and enhance the look of a scene.

Here is a link to "A Distant Shore" which my daughter worked on a couple of years back. There is a number of scenes that occur in the woods at night which were shot day-for-night. Look at the sequence that begins around 05:22 to see if this is an acceptable potential solution for your situation.

http://talent.museelectronics.com/ads.wmv

I have examples of things that I have recently shot that show what can be done in night-for-night using a single 1.2k HMI at a distance of over 100 feet. Let me know if you are interested and I can provide that link as well.

In the end, you have choices, each has its limitations and advantages. Without a bit more information on your location and the requirements of your scene, it is going to be difficult to give you anything approaching a specific suggestion.
 
khmuse said:
In the end, you have choices, each has its limitations and advantages. Without a bit more information on your location and the requirements of your scene, it is going to be difficult to give you anything approaching a specific suggestion.
Click to expand...


This should always be the first questions asked....I usually do, but got caught up on options, rather than solutions....Good point Khmuse.
 
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