ugh- looking for a little advice

D

djembeplay

Well-known member
Hey guys. I hate to be a bummer, but I would like to ask about money. I have recently bought a DVX with a mic, case, few batteries, manfrotto... Ya I am in debt. I am reading all these posts with people talking about these jobs they are working on... I'm just confused. I have no idea how to find work or how people generally find work. I take pride in my work and have been producing experimental shorts for about 7 years. I have won a couple of awards, but... my reel seems to bring a lot of awkward responses... and many times no responses at all... I am guessing because the market and amount of people into experimental cinema is very small. I went from a very accepting and acclaiming environment in college to what feels bleak and increasingly hopeless. This is frustrating because this is my personal work and love, but not what I would necessarily deliver to someone who wants more shot-by-shot production on something like a commercial or instructional video for example. If people aren't into my personal work, I wish they would see it just for the producing and editing capabilities I have (but this is probably a bit too idealistic). Experimental cinema was great in college, but now... I am living off of a lot of bread and water. I am a frugal person and I could live off of $500/ month (ya, no frills)... but I don't seem to be able to be remotely close to even bringing this in... I would shoot / edit anything... anything at this point (except porn)...


What I have done is start a company based in Ithaca, NY called EmberCreek Films. I have one wedding job lined up for the summer... $500. Its not much but I take what I can get. I have dropped off and mailed tons and tons of business cards and listed some ads in craigslist.com. How should I advertise besides this? I have not made a website yet... does that make all the difference? What is your take on advertising in the Yellow Pages (or even having your name listed)? I don't know guys, its pretty frustrating. Hardly anyone I talk to seems in the least bit wanting to help with just a little advice. Please do not get the impression that I am in any way fishing for sympathy or playing the 'victim card' or anything'. But, ya... it would be nice... if some of you veterans have any words of wisdom to a greenhorn.


Anyways... I didn't mean to make this such a long message... apologies. I will be looking forward to hearing back. Thanks a ton guys.


-Tejay
 
I can only talk about here in the UK but::

Unfortunatly nowaday's, with so many more college's and Uni's offering media / Film making courses. And desent camera's and editing equipment being so cheap. The industry is flooded with graduates all expecting to make it big in TV / Film.
I don't know you, and don't know your work, you may be the best undiscovered talent. but. most graduates from film school will never get work in the industry.

have you thought of going into a production house / TV station, and re-starting at the bottom. get yourself known and pick up more experience from the big boys.
It will get the bills paid and get your face seen. You'll probably get more job satisfaction from that than doing Wedding video's (there is another side of the industry that is swamped)

ian
 
tejay -

i was in the same boat as you six years ago. exact same boat. i was making experimental films and video/sound installations. this is what i did: i got a job. more specifically, i got a residency at a college. that lasted two years, and throughout those two years, i developed my business. by the time i left my teaching residency, i had enough work to easily support myself.

frankly, it's not difficult to do this. don't listen to anyone who tells you it is. the moving image is the communication format of the 21st century. this is becoming more and more obvious to everyone with the advent of new technologies and cultural trends (youtube, tivo, etc.). you have the ability to provide this communication format to everyone around you, from people to big corporations.

weddings are an ok way to start. but after you do that one job for $500, never charge that little again. you're making a feature-length documentary for f's sake. i strongly recommend talking to people that you know about what you do. people know people who know people who are looking for a good video producer. and since those people know people who you know, they might be more willing to give you a shot based on your experimental work, especially if you are proud of your experimental work (what happens at the fringe of culture dictates what happens in the mainstream).

that's what happened to me anyway... and i still make experimental films and video/sound installations.

good luck. get a part-time job.
 
Tejay,
I hate to say it, but work is what you gotta do till you get "discovered." Right now I'm working full time as a paramedic and getting in as many projects as I can on the side. Maybe one day I'll be able to get a job "in the industry" but until then I still have to eat. There are 24 hours in the day. What you do with them is up to you. I choose to cram them as full as I can with work, filming, editing, writing, etc...
Good luck to you,
-Will
 
I'm no expert, so correct me if I'm wrong, but here's what I've gathered from time.

Well I've taken a year off of school to basically see how difficult it is to get in the "industry". I'm going to be studying film production, or hopefuly at least, but i know that won't give me a job.

Usually you need to start from the bottom. Whether it's a job as a PA, or making your own shorts.

I'm currently working as a PA. If you work at it it's easy to get a job as one. A PA is basically a grunt on set of a feature film. Some may argue that it's a road to nowhere, but I dissagree.

As a PA you get a taste of what it's like to be on set... when you're not running around. You get how it works and you gain contacts.

This is an industry of contacts.

I started just as a volunteer PA. But one thing led to another, and a producer I worked for took me on for another project cause she liked how I worked. A paying project. 150$/day is nice pay. :) Especially for someone used to minimum wage.

Now I have a few PA jobs under my belt, short films, two feature films, and a few contacts. My Producer even ended up seeing my film and convinced me to send it to her friend, the head of the fantasia film festival (a pretty big montreal festival). Looks like it might get in. Still awaiting word though.

But just working as a PA before I head off to university, I already have a great contact, that thinks I'm great at what I do and wants to take me on for something else, and a few other small contacts here and there. So once I get out of university I'll just keep doing this contact thing, and showing my bosses my work, and hopefully it'll start getting me somewhere.

I want to be a DOP, so hopefully after a few more PA jobs I'll be able to go onto being a cameraman's assistant, then from there a cameraman. I'd even be happy to just be a cameraman and work on my own films on the side, but if I can, I'd like to even make the jump to DP, and maybe even director...

It's all high hopes and thinking. I may not make it to DP or director, but hopefully if I push enough I can make it to camera work.

Just get those contacts. Volunteer for everything around. Look on Mandy.com or craigslist for postings of crew calls. When you see a movie shoot ask to see the unit manager and give them your name, telling them you'd be a great PA or driver. Volunteer like mad, and when you do, show everyone you can your work and be sure to work as hard as you can.

Going to school helps you gain contacts. Be nice to everyone! This is important. If you make enemies, then you're in the wrong business. That guy you can't stand in your class may be the guy that interviews you for a crew position a few years later.

As well, work on your own films on the side. Work hard to learn and apply what you've learnt. Run a proffesional set and do the best you can. Make something beautiful. Also learn to make things quickly as well. As they say, a working director is one that stays on schedule.

Start submitting your films to film festivals. Get your name out there.

Work with friends from school. A lot of friends that work together well end up working together on indy films with their own little company.

And last but not least, it may be a cheesy line, but works:

Aim for the moon, because even if you miss, you'll land amongst the stars

So go for that Director job, that DP job, whatever it may be. If you don't make it, you may land yourself another good position in the industry. Maybe you'll find a love in doing grip or lighting work, maybe a set builder, sound guy, 1st AD, casting director, maybe even something in marketting, etc...

There are dozens of job positions in the industry, yet some people only aim to be a director.
 
Well, i am a Video artist before anything. I do Cinematography and Photography as a job. Learn to shoot in the style that looks more commercial, but incorporates your own unique vision.

This way its different enough to be noticed, but still common enough to be sellable. its a balance.
 
Woah, this forum is amazing. I check my posting the next night and this many people responded.

All really good advice - It is inspiring to hear that almost everyone who responded indentified with my situation... and you all seem to have stuck with it AND it payed off. It's good to hear someone else who is into producing experimental cinema as well. Awesome.

So, incidentally, I am curious as to how advertising agencies work. Are they plentiful or few and far between? And, do you find that they generally have a demand for video work or is that also... few and far between?

I like the volunteer on-set idea as well. Although, I am unsure how much of that I will find around Ithaca, NY. Actually I am planning on moving to Hawaii soon anyways... I cant stand the winters anymore and I would like to get into underwater videography. The only open editing house in Ithaca (i.e. more than one person running his/her own business) is called Photosynthesis. I talked to the owner the other day actually... she had like 5 guys working in there and seemed to not need any immediate help but said she would refer some jobs (like wedding gigs) that she does not want over to me... which is nice. I told her I do all my work on a PC on Vegas in combination with After Effects mainly. She uses Macs with Avid and had never heard of Vegas... which means she probably wrote off the possibility of hiring me for an editing job in-house at that point I am guessing. From what I read on here, most editing houses seem to be this way (with Avid or FCP). I have used both and find the Vegas / AE combination much more intuitive. So... I wonder if this will limit my being hired anywhere and point me in the direction of a more independent route. Of course, on the other hand, all NLEs are pretty much the same IMHO... meaning once you are familiar with one, the learning curve of getting used to another seems to be minimal. Time will tell I suppose.

If you guys are interested, I finished a short project for Panasonic's national "Share the Air" video contest about a month and a half ago. They wanted a 24 creative clip expressing their theme. They recently showcased my piece among 8 others on their site. Here is a link (mine is titled 'Oxygen Imagination'):

http://www.sharetheair.net/videos_flash.asp

Let me know what you guys think. Thanks again.

Best,

Tejay
 
djembeplay said:
Woah, this forum is amazing.
Click to expand...

Yes, yes it is....

And one thing that I think really helps the most is networking. I don't get many paid gigs, maybe one every few months...so I'm still in the early stages of making money with my equipment but those few jobs I do get are almost always through friends in the business. Other people I know often call me and need a second cam on a shoot.

With indy film shoots and music videos, it's the same; a friend of mine will be producing a music video and needs a shooter so he'll call me up.

Network with people on these boards and work on as many shoots as you can as long as there is food. I'm still at the point where I'll work on a shoot for free as long as there's good food.:happy:

It's easy to network on the free shoots and if people like your style, they'll call you when they've got a paid gig on the horizon.
 
djembeplay said:
I am living off of a lot of bread and water. I am a frugal person and I could live off of $500/ month (ya, no frills)... but I don't seem to be able to be remotely close to even bringing this in... I would shoot / edit anything... anything at this point (except porn)...

-Tejay
Click to expand...
perhaps you should consider lowering your standards.
 
ugafan said:
perhaps you should consider lowering your standards.
Click to expand...


Well no you shouldnt. I have no idea who wrote this but it applies Directly to us. DIRECTLY.

"Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking "artists"
for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo
designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of
illustrative service.

But what they're NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare
someone with these particular talents can be.

To those who are "seeking artists", let me ask you; How many people do
you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the
services you need? A dozen? Five? One? …none?

More than likely, you don't know any. Otherwise, you wouldn't be
posting on craigslist to find them.

And this is not really a surprise.

In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there
are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many
certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT
field.

So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would
it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would
you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his
compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as
you drive down the street?

Would you offer a neurosurgeon the "opportunity" to add your name to
his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could
offer him "a few bucks" for "materials". What a deal!)

Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting
service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your
website, as their payment for hosting you?

If you answered "yes" to ANY of the above, you're obviously insane. If
you answered "no", then kudos to you for living in the real world.

But then tell me… why would you think it is okay to live out the same,
delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities
are even less in supply than these folks?

Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen.
As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than
professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a
bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes
you look like a twit.

A few things you need to know;

1. It is not a "great opportunity" for an artist to have his work seen
on your car/'zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a "great
opportunity" for YOU to have their work there.

2. It is not clever to seek a "student" or "beginner" in an attempt to
get work for free. It's ignorant and insulting. They may be
"students", but that does not mean they don't deserve to be paid for
their hard work. You were a "student" once, too. Would you have taken
that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential
job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as
stupid.

3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen
by other people, whether it's one or one million, is NOT a valid
enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their
"portfolio". They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as
they should. It's not compensation. It's their right, and it's a
given.

4. Stop thinking that you're giving them some great chance to work.
Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is
usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay
them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are
people who possess these skills.

5. Students DO need "experience". But they do NOT need to get it by
giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the
experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is
obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to
have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors
list the "experience" they got while nailing down a loose step at
their grandmother's house when they were seventeen?

If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it
would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience
they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what
kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.

6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some
will ask you to "submit work for consideration". They may even be
posing as some sort of "contest". These are almost always scams. They
will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the
"contest", or be "chosen" for the gig, and find what they like most.
They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who
works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of
their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight
modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid,
you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the
underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or "spec",
work. It's risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to
avoid it, completely. For more information on this subject, please
visit www.no-spec.com.

So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a
favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to
pay you. Whether they are "spec" gigs, or just some guy who wants a
free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need
them.

And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free… please
wake up and join the real world. The only thing you're accomplishing
is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue"
 
TimurCivan said:
So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a
favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to
pay you. Whether they are "spec" gigs, or just some guy who wants a
free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need
them.
Click to expand...

Wow, very well said.
 
I just have to say that TimurCivan made some good points up there...
and now I look like a total ass for my porn joke.

So ignore me - and go reread his post.
 
Ya seriously TimurCivan... your post should be legendary... written on the walls of young artists... 'After wake and before sleep, many were known to chant these words... sometimes for hours at a time. -taken from a brief history of the artist mantra'

Although, when I was 17, I did put some pretty sweet nails in my relatives' homes...
 
Geoff- I was an actor in vol. 12, believe it or not. Was that you behind the camera? I played your "dissatisfied customer" character...
 
Vol. 12...the memories are a little hazy...those were my heavy coke using days...but I think I remember you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top