HVX vs. the Canon XHA1
- Thread starter Jarred Land
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Nathyn
Low Budget Ninja
Well Barry, we know you are the camera pimp and master of the DVX/HVX iris but I think maybe the question is should these cameras have been compared at all. I know people are doing it but the price points are totally different and what they do are different. People considering the A1 aren't doing it in spite of the HVX but because of it.Barry_Green said:
What I mean is, people like me love Panasonic's image but at the price point it's not worth getting extra when I can get all I need (and more) from the A1. You would've been better off comparing it to the XL-H1. That would make more sense from the the overall price point angle and comparison angle.
People want out the box shooting. Panasonic officers this with the DVX but the problem is to get what you want from the HVX you're going to pay a lot more (roughly $4000 more) versus HD for $3999 ($3669 at B&H) that's compatible with most of your current equipment. You're talking about a price range of about $8000, but I could buy two A1s for that. (Honestly I could buy an A1 and shoot a feature for that kind of money).
To sum it up the HVX is the HVX but the A1 is the current DVX100. Remember the DVX100 was hot because of what it was and no other camera is that right now. Until Panasonic comes out the DVX1-HD the Canon A1 is the DVX100 of the HD community. Panasonic give you great video plus two levels of 24p plus 30p when no one else did it at that price point.
Today Canon is giving you 24p, 30p, 1080i and the whole shabang at a $3669 price point again at a time no else is willing too. Those who would've bought the DVX100 in our time will probably buy the A1 today. Panasonic dropped the ball here and should've dropped an HDV DVX versus just the HVX. If you notice Sony and Canon both dropped a prosumer cam and a more pro-cam.
Also you did try to say the HVX was "less" professional. Now come on Barry, you knew that would make people salty. These are pro cams being used for pro-work and we should all just get over it. None of these cameras are the Varicam, Viper or Cine-Alta.
-Nate
scannon
Well-known member
Nate
Whether you agree or disagree with the comparison the term "Camera Pimp" is uncalled for and insulting.
The comparison between the HVX and the A1 was a response to many asking Barry's opinion and calling for his input not his crusade to trash the A1. In subsequent comments Barry I believe also agreed that the comparison between the A1 and the Sonu V1U is perhaps the real test of Apples to Apples.
Most of your points were also confirmed in this section over a 120 previous replys and obvious to everyone. There was no added value to restating them.
Your personal opinion is respected but the dressing down tone and vulgarity are not. Certainly not by this member
SCannon
Whether you agree or disagree with the comparison the term "Camera Pimp" is uncalled for and insulting.
The comparison between the HVX and the A1 was a response to many asking Barry's opinion and calling for his input not his crusade to trash the A1. In subsequent comments Barry I believe also agreed that the comparison between the A1 and the Sonu V1U is perhaps the real test of Apples to Apples.
Most of your points were also confirmed in this section over a 120 previous replys and obvious to everyone. There was no added value to restating them.
Your personal opinion is respected but the dressing down tone and vulgarity are not. Certainly not by this member
SCannon
WOW this has turned into something it shouldnt. People should keep their pants on and be thankful there is someone like Barry that can undertake these reviews.
I would say though there are a lot of useful points just the tone of some comments that are surprising me.
Sorry Justyn just wanted to clarify that point - the poster above you was talking about uncompressed footage ( I assume he actually meant via component out and not HD SDI which the A1 doesnt have - G１ does).
Anyway YOU CAN capture from the A1 uncompressed 4:2:2 via the component out - this source DOES NOT go through HDV compression. And the resulting image has every bit of color space the HVX does - both 4:2:2.
I want to make that point clear as I have seen it arise - and I initially pointed it out only as it was not in Barry's review. So for greenscreen work using the A1 you will need a hefty computer capable of capturing the stream and the correct capture hardware (refer to Barlow Elton for the exact details). I personally havent undertaken an uncompressed capture from the A1 as yet, but I assure you if a job arose where I needed to use the A1 and greenscreen, the ability to do so would be in the budget - no one expects pro green screen in a studio without the set up budget to actually carry it out. The actual rental on the MAC and card for a day would be minimal I would imagine - within just about anyones budget. Many have the computer to do so, but like in my case would most likely rent the capture hardware to carry it out.
The problem is that the configuration as I understand it is not usable in a laptop as you need a PCI Express slot.
If youre thinking limitations on tethered, check out the Andromeda for the DVX, completely tethered at all times - awesome image (for point of reference Andromeda is 4:4:4: - just so no one comes and feels the need to point it out as I didnt give up that info).
I would say though there are a lot of useful points just the tone of some comments that are surprising me.
Justyn said:
Sorry Justyn just wanted to clarify that point - the poster above you was talking about uncompressed footage ( I assume he actually meant via component out and not HD SDI which the A1 doesnt have - G１ does).
Anyway YOU CAN capture from the A1 uncompressed 4:2:2 via the component out - this source DOES NOT go through HDV compression. And the resulting image has every bit of color space the HVX does - both 4:2:2.
I want to make that point clear as I have seen it arise - and I initially pointed it out only as it was not in Barry's review. So for greenscreen work using the A1 you will need a hefty computer capable of capturing the stream and the correct capture hardware (refer to Barlow Elton for the exact details). I personally havent undertaken an uncompressed capture from the A1 as yet, but I assure you if a job arose where I needed to use the A1 and greenscreen, the ability to do so would be in the budget - no one expects pro green screen in a studio without the set up budget to actually carry it out. The actual rental on the MAC and card for a day would be minimal I would imagine - within just about anyones budget. Many have the computer to do so, but like in my case would most likely rent the capture hardware to carry it out.
The problem is that the configuration as I understand it is not usable in a laptop as you need a PCI Express slot.
If youre thinking limitations on tethered, check out the Andromeda for the DVX, completely tethered at all times - awesome image (for point of reference Andromeda is 4:4:4: - just so no one comes and feels the need to point it out as I didnt give up that info).
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Nathyn
Low Budget Ninja
Actually that wasn't an insult it was the exact opposite and believe I've called him that before. (Maybe it was video pimp I used or maybe that was Jarred). You took it the wrong way. If you look at the context there was no negativity implied as I happen to like Barry and Jarred (biased or not they seem pretty cool).scannon said:
But they weren't confirmed by me, were they? Ah ha. Seriously I wanted to weigh in so I did. I didn't expect you or anyone else to take that one thing (out all the stuff I said) the way you did as I don't think Barry did. Although it's cool of you to try to keep things civil. I still take issue with the HVX being the clear winner of a class it's not in (but as said others have made this point), but other than that it's no big deal. And is Barry not the camera/video pimp and Master of all things DVX/HVX? I believe he is, otherwise we wouldn't come to him or take stock in him for this kind of info. I rest my case.scannon said:
-Nate
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xray
Well-known member
Justyn said:
Justyn, there is HDV footage and HDV footage. You have the JVC version 1 and 2, you have the Sony version 1 and 2 and the Canon. MPEG2 gives room for enhanced results, encoding is going better and better. The moving images from Canon XHA1 are way better than the Sony Fx1. (this is just an example).
So comparing or generally 'HDV footage with lot of motion looks terrible' is showing you are not being accurate. If you like, I can point you to A1 footage with streaming water on rocks (mostly a hard to compress moving image) to show my point. It looks terrific.
Jack Alltrades
Member
Justyn said:
I totally agree about HDV - I've had to grade Z1 footage many times, and I know how bad it is - but the question is about the SDI output, if it can be recorded in some sort of cleaner quicktime format on a Mac etc, surely the A1 uncompressed is going to give better results than the HVX uncompressed?
xray
Well-known member
Jack Alltrades said:
Ehh...both have no SDI output, but the component output on both is the same. If you pass the recording-part and take the signal directly to an external device (computer with HD analog component in board) with ultrafast raid you can record uncompressed HD. Quicktime itself has nothing to do with it.
Many factors involved without saying this one is better that the other. The Canon XHG1 though, has an HD/SD-SDI terminal with embedded audio and TC. Really nice.
xray
Well-known member
Jack Alltrades said:
Ehh...both have NO SDI output, but the component output on both is the same. If you pass the recording-part and take the signal directly to an external device (computer with HD analog component in board) with ultrafast raid you can record uncompressed HD. Quicktime itself has nothing to do with it.
Many factors involved without saying this one is better that the other. The Canon XHG1 though, has an HD/SD-SDI terminal with embedded audio and TC. Really nice.
Nathyn
Low Budget Ninja
I did want to show footage I've seen from Spencer Lum and Joe Simon. I will simply give the urls. This is the stuff that sealed the deal for me as far as what this camera can look like. Mind you these are so good I downloaded them as inspiration.
http://www.iriscinema.com/katya.mov
http://www.joesimonproductions.com/shootout/downtown.mov
-Nate
http://www.iriscinema.com/katya.mov
http://www.joesimonproductions.com/shootout/downtown.mov
-Nate
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Justyn
Veteran
I appreciate the correction on the uncompressed side.. but that requires some additional components that do indeed make the pricepoint jump up to another level of course.
I'm glad things are coming along with the other cams and yes I'd like to see some of those samples... I'm not opposed to getting another hammer in my arsenal... Barrys review helped in presenting these points.
I do think that we get a little bit too emotionally invested in what we have spent our money on... I just know that I need a camera with a varied skillset. I have recently landed a gig on a show that will be using both the canons and the JVCs.. simply because I can shoot timelapse and slow-motion. Now that's an area where the HVX excells and in many ways is worth the expense. Also, anyone who's rented the Varicam and loved the results can appreciate that the HVX gives a pretty good quality value comparatively.
Shoot. As soon as I have room on my credit card I'm buying the sony CMOS cam and a waterhousing. For 2200 bucks for both that's an amazing deal since I can shoot a ton of surfing and watersports stuff in HD without a ton of expense...
Finally.. I do think that Barry is owed a great deal of respect and props for taking the time out to do this review and for being so impatial. He doesn't seem biased to me.. Sure he has his tastes, but his analysis and insight is beyond reproach...
I'm glad things are coming along with the other cams and yes I'd like to see some of those samples... I'm not opposed to getting another hammer in my arsenal... Barrys review helped in presenting these points.
I do think that we get a little bit too emotionally invested in what we have spent our money on... I just know that I need a camera with a varied skillset. I have recently landed a gig on a show that will be using both the canons and the JVCs.. simply because I can shoot timelapse and slow-motion. Now that's an area where the HVX excells and in many ways is worth the expense. Also, anyone who's rented the Varicam and loved the results can appreciate that the HVX gives a pretty good quality value comparatively.
Shoot. As soon as I have room on my credit card I'm buying the sony CMOS cam and a waterhousing. For 2200 bucks for both that's an amazing deal since I can shoot a ton of surfing and watersports stuff in HD without a ton of expense...
Finally.. I do think that Barry is owed a great deal of respect and props for taking the time out to do this review and for being so impatial. He doesn't seem biased to me.. Sure he has his tastes, but his analysis and insight is beyond reproach...
Jack Alltrades
Member
xray said:
Yes, sorry - I was talking about the G1 but kept calling the A1, my mistake! This whole thing is accademic at the moment though, until someone makes a USB capture card that plugs into a laptop, and someone else makes a USB raid array that can store it in real time!
The 60p (50p in Europe?) advantage of the HVX is tempting, but it all depends whether slow motion is something that you're going to use often or not - for me it generally isn't. But I really think, to make the same pedantic point again, that the picture of the bug spray shows clearly that the A1 (/ G1 / H1) produces a higher-res image than the HVX, and since HD is all about resolution, I'd personally rather have the maximum resolution image. You can always grade the colour and gamma.
KyleProhaska
Veteran
People talk like if you dont have the HVX that slow motion isnt possible. If you know what your doing, 60i footage can easily be turned into 60p and slowed from there as much as you please. It isn't DVCPRO HD and loose slight quality but if you do it right, it works great.
- Kyle
- Kyle
Jack Alltrades
Member
KyleProhaska said:
I've had no problem doing slow motion in DV, using a deinterlacer and a shutter set at 100/sec (PAL), but when I tried the same with a Z1 in HDV I got a ghost after-image (ie, the alternate field) in each frame. I was using Avid, and I tried various ways of exporting the footage uncompressed, but couldn't get rid of it. It might have been Avid - it'd be interesting to know if anyone else has had this problem?
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Elton
Veteran
This was 1080i HDV shot for slowmo: http://realm.cc/upload/Elton/SlowMoTest.mov 21 MB h264 QT
Jack Alltrades
Member
Elton said:
That's far better than I could get - what's it shot on (presume not a Z1?) and what editing / effects package did you use?
Elton
Veteran
That was XL-H1 1080i shot with a slightly fast shutter speed. I used a FCP/ Nattress plug-in to convert fields into frames (with some anti-aliasing) and ended up with a 1080 60p clip (believe it or not) that downrezzed to smaller frames fairly well. The clip contained no CC too, which I probably should've done to make the colors pop a little, but oh well. Edit: Play with boosting the color and contrast under AV Controls in the QT player and it looks richer.
There are lots of ways to do it, but for me the Nattress plug-in was the fastest rendering and produced good quality.
There are lots of ways to do it, but for me the Nattress plug-in was the fastest rendering and produced good quality.
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Jack Alltrades
Member
Elton said:
Well it certainly worked - it looks great! I don't know if my problem was with the Z1 or Avid, but I suspect it was the Z1. Looks like I might have to invest in the H1!
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