synching up external sound afterwards?

X

Xax

Active member
hi

i recently was on a shoot, where they shot the picture with a hvx200 and the sound was recorded externally via flash drive... they then cut the movie and on the end, wanted to sync the sound on the timeline, which apparently didn't work since none of the used clips had a clap left

so i'd like to ask:

how's the normal workflow with sound which has been recorded externally and has to be synced to the video afterwards?

shall i just sync all the clips with their sound files?
or is it better to cut the movie first and then align the sound in the media files themselves? if yes, which tools would i use on a mac on which i am editing the short in final cut pro? is soundtrack pro sufficient?

any help and information would be helpful

thanks in advance ;)

regards, Xax
 
Shoot... normally you're supposed to sync sound first before you start cutting. It makes things easier in the long run. I know at least in Avid, you have to create a new subclip when you sync sound, so if that's true for Final Cut, you're going to have to make synced versions of your master video clips and then match timecode and cut the new clips back into your timeline.

Is this their first time recording sound seperate from the camera? If it's not, then they probably had a plan before hand on how they were going to sync sound. If it is their first time, then lesson learned. It's gonna be a ***** if you have a lot of footage cut in already.
 
There are many workflows to syncing audio in post. The most common would be to sync all the dailies as they come in using either TC or the sticks.

If you want to sync only the clips used in the final cut then simply pulling up each master clip from your subclips and sync to the sticks on the masters. This is something you would do in your picture editor (FCP I assume).

Good luck
 
thanks for the responses so far...

so how would i replace the camera sound with the externally recorded sound in final cut pro? or should i use some other software like logic or soundtrack pro?

regards, xax
 
if the camera tc and sound tc are indentical first place its very eacy
if not you synchronize the rushes first on the time line before you edit
 
Oleg 2 said:
if the camera tc and sound tc are indentical first place its very eacy
if not you synchronize the rushes first on the time line before you edit
Click to expand...

Dear Oleg,
I read some of your replies. I would like to know how can I get an indentical TC in the first place, meaning during the shoot.
I have a HVX200, but what kind of recorder I need? Does Tascam work? Or at least I need a SD 7 series with TC? Also, what is the workflow usually?
I really want to learn.
Thanks a lot.
King
 
you will need 1 that can record free run tc , tascam is the half way , you will need ext tc generator for this one .
the cheapest now on the market is the r-4 with tc for 4 tracks or look for fr-2 from fostex with tc card .
702 t is also something you may consider ,it cost more
you cant get identical tc ., you can run free run tc and slate every few hours or with battery /cassette change to fix the drift .
later in editing place the sticks on the time line and automatically synchronize all the takes till next clap ( 2-5 times per day, nonsense for editor)
the other way is transfer wirelessly tc to camera audio track and import that time code later on avid and replace the video one you have ( with fcp its much tricky , you will need aditional program that of course not cheap from gallery)
i prefer the first one since usially:-) it works at least for me and these who hire me .
 
Oleg 2 said:
you will need 1 that can record free run tc , tascam is the half way , you will need ext tc generator for this one .
the cheapest now on the market is the r-4 with tc for 4 tracks or look for fr-2 from fostex with tc card .
702 t is also something you may consider ,it cost more
you cant get identical tc ., you can run free run tc and slate every few hours or with battery /cassette change to fix the drift .
later in editing place the sticks on the time line and automatically synchronize all the takes till next clap ( 2-5 times per day, nonsense for editor)
the other way is transfer wirelessly tc to camera audio track and import that time code later on avid and replace the video one you have ( with fcp its much tricky , you will need aditional program that of course not cheap from gallery)
i prefer the first one since usially:-) it works at least for me and these who hire me .
Click to expand...
Thanks, Oleg 2,
Would you tell me the make of r-4, so that I can do some reseach on it, please?
Also, for all the methods you mentioned in your post, can I use them by HVX200?
Thanks a lot.
King
 
wabbit said:
There are many workflows to syncing audio in post. The most common would be to sync all the dailies as they come in using either TC or the sticks.

If you want to sync only the clips used in the final cut then simply pulling up each master clip from your subclips and sync to the sticks on the masters. This is something you would do in your picture editor (FCP I assume).

Good luck
Click to expand...
That's the way I've done it. Sync the slate on the audio and video, then merge the clips. Works great. (FCP)
 
Edirol makes the R-4 and you will need the R-4 PRO. The regular R-4 does not have TC. FYI, the regular R-4 was pretty crappy and although I have not seen the R-4 Pro, my opinion is the HD-P2 is going to be way better for less cash (less channels though).

It's true the HVX will not sync up with anything other then other HVX's for now (there are products being developed and hope for the future), but you can send a TC out from your recorder or whatever TC source and record it on one of your camera's audio tracks.

Avid can read this audio track as LTC and make it your primary TC to sync from. To date I have not seen if FCP can do this and I am fairly confident the "lesser" NLE cannot.

Good luck
 
wabbit said:
Edirol makes the R-4 and you will need the R-4 PRO. The regular R-4 does not have TC. FYI, the regular R-4 was pretty crappy and although I have not seen the R-4 Pro, my opinion is the HD-P2 is going to be way better for less cash (less channels though).

It's true the HVX will not sync up with anything other then other HVX's for now (there are products being developed and hope for the future), but you can send a TC out from your recorder or whatever TC source and record it on one of your camera's audio tracks.

Avid can read this audio track as LTC and make it your primary TC to sync from. To date I have not seen if FCP can do this and I am fairly confident the "lesser" NLE cannot.

Good luck
Click to expand...

Dear Wabbit,

I am very interested in what you are saying using a camera's audio track to record the TC out from a recorder that can generate TC, like R-4 Pro or SD 702T.

Can HVX200 accomplish this? Anyway, for using the P2 card, HVX200 can have upto 4 16-bit tracks, so I think it is really nothing to spare one track to record the TC. Am I correct about this?

If it works, what is the workflow? I hope it works, and then I don't need to manually sync up all the audio and video tracks in Avid Xpress Pro HD any more.

Thanks.

King
 
you can do it only if you create another camera input true its internal microphone (eliminate the mic and make input , may be done , was done by m ember of this forum)
about tascam - its 1000us $ +what ever you pay for ext tc generator - not worth it .
the edirol pro has int generator so you can run it , it doesnt support 23,979 assume you will shoot 24p-23.97 wnative with your camera - here iam abit slow as fact we dont have these problems as we work 24 or 25 natural here in pal land, so ask around, but it isnt to much problem since it would stay in sync if yoy will convert - pulldown it later as i understand )

in any case dont buy recorder without tc generator as your only recorder
 
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Been awhile so this is all from memory but the workflow is:

1. Select clips with TC on channel 1
2. In Specials menu click something like "read audio TC"
3. Select channel 1 as your source and Aux TC as your destination
4. Import TC audio files and copy their start TC to Aux TC
5. Put them all in the same bin and select Autosync

Avid creates a bunch of sub clips with the new audio.

Make sure to do a test run first before shooting a whole project with this plan.

Good luck
 
Oleg 2 said:
you can do it only if you create another camera input true its internal microphone (eliminate the mic and make input , may be done , was done by the eber of this forum)
about tascam - its 1000us $ +what ever you pay for ext tc generator - not worth it .
the edirol pro has int fenerator so you can run it , it doesnt support 23,979 assume you will shoot 24p-2307 wnative with your camera - here iam abit slow as fact we dont have these problems as we work 24 or 25 natural here in pal land, so ask around, but it isnt to much problem since it would stay in sync if yoy will convert - pulldown it later as i understand )

in any case dont buy recorder without tc generator as your only recorder
Click to expand...
Thanks, Oleg 2 and Wabbit,
By the way, I am in a Pal Land, too.
According to what Oleg 2 said, it seems to me that I just use a XLR cable to connect the TC out of the sound recorder that can generate a TC, like in your post an Edirol Pro, to one of the XLR jack of HVX200 with "line" instead of "MIC" selected. Then I run both machine, and that particular audio track will have the identical TC as the sound recorder.
When I use Avid to do my editing, I just need to follow the workflow provided by Wabbit. Then I will have the picture and audio linked and synced together in a click.
Am I correct about this? Anything I am missing? Please correct.
Thanks.
King
 
Oleg 2 said:
that about right for the situation , where exactly your pal land eu or au?
Click to expand...

Oleg 2, I am from Asia, but not au.

By the way, do we need a special cable to connect the camera and recorder?

Also, Isn't the cable going to be connected all the time during the shoot? If so, then somehow this kills a little bit the flexibility of double system, doesn't this?

Thanks a lot.

King
 
no no need for spacial cable , what ever you get from recorder to xlr on the camera .
the more expencive way is get small tc generator such Ambient de make and feed its tc in free run to audio channel+ jamming your recorder in the same time , that may be very nice solution for these who use tascam as well , dont really know how much is it device but definitely not cheap .
the same trick may be done with Horrita generators as well , they are in normal price range .
the ambient is much smarter since it also can take tc from sony /canon lanc socket and convert it to regular tc which can sync the recorder or be sent to other camera tc input or audio track ;
so there are more then one way doing this stuff .
by the way you dont need cable ,simple wireless system will do the same( check korean manufactors and taiwanian mipro) , the drop outs are not relevant since when the tc is converted in avid , it use only the fist frame stamp the new tc , so if you dont loose it completely chance to make hall exactly in the first frame of the camera shot is something i can live with .where in Asia you are 9 by the way AU is a continent as i remember :-))
 
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Oleg 2 said:
no no need for spacial cable , what ever you get from recorder to xlr on the camera .
the more expencive way is get small tc generator such Ambient de make and feed its tc in free run to audio channel+ jamming your recorder in the same time , that may be very nice solution for these who use tascam as well , dont really know how much is it device but definitely not cheap .
the same trick may be done with Horrita generators as well , they are in normal price range .
the ambient is much smarter since it also can take tc from sony /canon lanc socket and convert it to regular tc which can sync the recorder or be sent to other camera tc input or audio track ;
so there are more then one way doing this stuff .
by the way you dont need cable ,simple wireless system will do the same( check korean manufactors and taiwanian mipro) , the drop outs are not relevant since when the tc is converted in avid , it use only the fist frame stamp the new tc , so if you dont loose it completely chance to make hall exactly in the first frame of the camera shot is something i can live with .where in Asia you are 9 by the way AU is a continent as i remember :-))
Click to expand...

Dear Oleg,

I understand even more now. I really appreciate your help!

By the way, when you say I can use a wireless system, are you saying something like Sennheiser eW100. So, I use the receiver to connect to the camear's audio in and tranmitter to the TC generator out. Am I correct?

You are right! AU is a continent. The reason I get confussed is because I read Bloomberg web page about currencies the other day, and they put Austrilian dollar under Asia section. But now you remind me the correct knowledge now. I am from Hong Kong. Have you been shooting here, award winning sound man:thumbsup: ?

Thanks.

King
 
no, never been in Hong Kong , but if you need soundman for your project i will be more then happy to do it :-)
Award winning (that's from mandys ?) - you must be talking the paper holders i got from the local society , nothing spesial in therms of globalisation :-)

about hooking the tc you get it correct , you pull the tc from your sound recorder and send it wirelessly to receiver which hooked to one of the hvx channels ( check with avid if it works for both channels , i really dont remeber)
but as i said before you can live without at all and just run regullar slate every hour or 2 , every time you change the card or changing the batteries on your camera or recorder to eliminate for minimum the drift which starting with the time or caused by power failure .
or use the first method with ext generator which sits on the camera and suply tc to audio channel and used as a prime source for tc jamming your recorder or as a slave from your recorder .
if you intend working double , alwais stay with open mic on the camera so if **** happens you can manually synk the stuff
 
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