My complaining finally paid off, but...

PerroneFord

PerroneFord

Deals in Lead
Well, after a few months of complaining about the sorry state of lighting around my office, things are finally happening. However, I got tasked with something I wasn't quite prepared to deal with.

We are renovating a large conference room in our building to use for large videoconferences. Looks like 4 60" plasma's, 3 videocams, an xga projector on a dalite screen, new carpet, etc. Nice room. But they've asked me to spec lighting suitable for bring out the best for the cameras.

I've asked them to give me a fixed spot in the room from which presentations will happen. This way, I'd know how to position the lights. I asked our building guy how much power he could give me, he said, I could have whatever I wanted. So here's the deal...

Room is 40ft long, about 30ft wide, with 14ft high ceiling. Lighting will be ceiling mounted (probably on a rail) about 20-25ft from the front of the room. There will be a podium at the front where the speaker will be. I cannot get 3 point onto this position as I cannot run a light behind them. So it will be a key and a fill.

My idea is to mount two tungsten fresnels aimed at the podium with barn-doors. The question is what would you use? I am not trying to go cheap here. But since I've not worked with these lights in the past I don't know how strong I should go. I've looked at the Mole Richardson charts on how many FC's I can place at a given distance with their lights. I'm thinking that I'll want to put 75-100 FC onto the podium position. The question is how blinding will this be to the speaker, and will diffusing it make it any better?

My thoughts right now are to buy a 1K key and maybe a 650 for the fill. This is not drama lighting, it's for presentations. And I am not using the world's best cameras, these are basic video conferencing cameras.

I've love to hear your thoughts here. Perhaps some of you have done this type of lighting, or perhaps have set lighting experience that would be applicable.

So in summary, how bright for the key, how bright for the fill, and will the person at the podium be absolutely blind? :)

Thanks.
 
Instead of power consuming, heat producing tingsten lights, you could opt for pluorescent lights. They will look better on your subject, and be much more confortable for everybody else in the room.

You would have to have them much closer to your subject, and much lower in the ceiling than 14 ft, probably close to your subjects limit heigh (around 7 ft tall). If you must reach your talent from far away, like 25 ft, your choice of a 1K fresnel might be right. It's not too blinding, and from that distance, I fear difusion is pretty useless...
 
My first choice was a set of kino's or Mole Biax. However, the lights have to be mounted behind the ceiling mounted projector. Thus I have a linear run of about 20ft to the talent, and a celing height of 14ft (with the bar dropped about 2ft from the ceiling). Flourescents just aren't going to give me what I need a that distance.

My original hope was that they would put the speaker near a corner. And I was going to wall mount two flourescent fixtures, and wall mount a backlight above him, and have all three lights wired to a wall-switch.

So the 1K key and 650 for fill sound about right. It's going to be a bit flat I'm afraid, but again, this is video conference and not drama. I just want to make sure it looks good and isn't going to blind whoever stands at the podium.
 
Instead of putting the lights behind the projector, why not use a couple of 1k's and cross key from either side of the room maybe 10-15 ft. out from the podium? That way you will not blind the speaker and there is less chance of shadows and spill on the presentation screen.
Also is there no chance of getting the podium at least a few feet out from the wall to get a small 150w up there for a bit of back light?
 
I had thought about the idea of cross keying. It's kind of hard to explain without a diagram. But imagine a rectangle. The screen is centered on one side of the rectangle, with the projector about in the center of the box. The podium is off center to the right, and it will be several feet away from the wall.

The trouble is the camera position. My belief is that the camera will likely be near the center of the room. If that is true, then shooting at the podium with cross lighting would likely mean I am shooting the key side of the speaker rather than the fill side. I'd like to avoid that if I can. I may be forced into it. I am also unsure if the rail at the ceiling will run the full width, which would mean I cannot cross key.

I am due to get a schematic of the room Monday so I can try to see where they plan on having everything.

ANyone have a preference between Mole, Arri, Altman for this? I will essentially have free reign to select. Right now, Mole and Arri are my top choices simply because I have confidence I can call them and get advice, or call and have any problems dealt with. I know what kind of clients they deal with.

I still cannot believe that the brain trust here where I work was going to spend $75k to renovate a room for videoconferencing, install 4 big plasmas, and a HD worthy projector, yet had NO spec for lighting other than the overhead flou's.
 
I think a lighting designer would use ETC Source 4 LEKO's instead of fresnels... especially with a 20' throw. The real concern, however, is electrical requirements and heat transmission. i.e. - will 4-750W lights close to the ceiling set off the sprinkler system? Will the installation be "to code"? Will it be safe? Hmmmm.... I would suggest hiring in a lighting designer to sort these issues out. Personally, I wouldn't risk my reputation on an area outside my expertise when so many things could go wrong. That's just me. Hiring a professional eliminates that risk. Good luck with your proposal.
 
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We do have a "pro" who is taking responsibility for the install. Power is not an issue, the building's supervisor is providing power for the room (100amps) so I think we'll be solid there. Heat is a major concern. And we might end up having to drop the lights further down, or use different lighting.

My hope was to run this by the design guy next week to get his feelings, but your cautions are well founded.

Thanks.
 
I agree with colormeter....
Having 4 Leko's dropped under standard ceiling tiles WILL be a heat issue.
These tiles would need to be replaced by something that can withstand the heat and be placed away from heat/smoke sensors..
A bracket on the wall for these might be an answer.
Everytime I have worked in one of these rooms, someone will eventually want to move furniture around or use the room in a different configuartion for their event, thus making your perfect set up unusable, or a pain in A s s to reset.. Just something to consider..
 
Having the furniture re-arranged was the FIRST thing I asked about. We have used that room in multiple configurations before. However, since the room will have camera's in fixed locations, and will have the plasma's in fixed locations, it really locks down their options about how to configure things.

I'll give a shout to the lighting guy next week and see what he has to say. Replacing the tiles above wouldn't be an issue, as we've done that before in another room.

Thanks for all the positive feedback guys. I'll let you know what we come up with.
 
Yes, that would be the best and easiest. Unfortunately, we can't afford this. We are a public entitiy. So we do the best we can with what we have. I envy those who have unlimited budgets and can simply do whatever they want.
 
PerroneFord said:
I had thought about the idea of cross keying. It's kind of hard to explain without a diagram. But imagine a rectangle. The screen is centered on one side of the rectangle, with the projector about in the center of the box. The podium is off center to the right, and it will be several feet away from the wall.

The trouble is the camera position. My belief is that the camera will likely be near the center of the room. If that is true, then shooting at the podium with cross lighting would likely mean I am shooting the key side of the speaker rather than the fill side. I'd like to avoid that if I can. I may be forced into it. I am also unsure if the rail at the ceiling will run the full width, which would mean I cannot cross key.

I am due to get a schematic of the room Monday so I can try to see where they plan on having everything....
Click to expand...

Think if you posted a diagram it would help people answer your question. Mark where all the fixed equipment installations are (assuming you really have no say in where plasmas, projector and mounting rails go?), and the planned furniture arrangements.
 
PerroneFord said:
I had thought about the idea of cross keying. It's kind of hard to explain without a diagram. But imagine a rectangle. The screen is centered on one side of the rectangle, with the projector about in the center of the box. The podium is off center to the right, and it will be several feet away from the wall.

The trouble is the camera position. My belief is that the camera will likely be near the center of the room. If that is true, then shooting at the podium with cross lighting would likely mean I am shooting the key side of the speaker rather than the fill side. I'd like to avoid that if I can. I may be forced into it. I am also unsure if the rail at the ceiling will run the full width, which would mean I cannot cross key.

I am due to get a schematic of the room Monday so I can try to see where they plan on having everything....
Click to expand...

Think if you posted a diagram it would help people answer your question. Mark where all the fixed equipment installations are (assuming you really have no say in where plasmas, projector and mounting rails go?), and the planned furniture arrangements.
 
PerroneFord said:
Yes, that would be the best and easiest. Unfortunately, we can't afford this. We are a public entitiy. So we do the best we can with what we have. I envy those who have unlimited budgets and can simply do whatever they want.
Click to expand...
The basic point of my post is that opinions from people on the internet mean very little and that no logical person would follow the advice of a person on the internet. You actually do yourself a great service by following your own instincts.
 
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Colormeter,

Thanks again for your thoughts. If this was my project, I'd have called a lighting designer right after calling a company with experience in setting up video-conferencing rooms. But it's NOT my project. I am just the guy yelling at the clowns organizing the project, that they probably ought not install $50k worth of cameras and plasmas and not install some lights to go with it. Seemed a new concept to them!

As for the lawyers, well, that's not a problem at my building. There's more lawyers here than I can shake a stick at. But, I do take your point. I will not specify the lighting. I will suggest we BUY some lights, and then bring in someone from one of the local TV stations (who's helped design lighting for another room in our building) to assist. I think that should make everyone happy, and should keep our costs down.

Thanks again everyone for your concerns and advice.
 
colormeter said:
The basic point of my post is that opinions from people on the internet mean very little and that no logical person would follow the advice of a person on the internet. You actually do yourself a great service by following your own instincts.
Click to expand...

Personally I think asking for advice and opinions from people on the internet that are involved in this kind of work, is the most logical thing to do when you are not sure how to approach a given situation. There will always be different opinions and ways of doing something, that you may not have even considered yourself, hence giving you a lot of options to choose from. Seems logical to me:dankk2:
 
ozduc said:
Personally I think asking for advice and opinions from people on the internet ... is the most logical thing to do
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That's where I get the best advice on constructing bridges, building airplanes, and performing surgery, toO! I just haven't had much luck persuading the "higher ups" to award me the work. I keep telling them, "I read how to do this on the internet, I know what I'm doing" but they aren't convinced. Oh well. There's always video production. ;-)
 
colormeter said:
That's where I get the best advice on constructing bridges, building airplanes, and performing surgery, toO! I just haven't had much luck persuading the "higher ups" to award me the work. I keep telling them, "I read how to do this on the internet, I know what I'm doing" but they aren't convinced. Oh well. There's always video production. ;-)
Click to expand...

So where would YOU suggest he go for different ideas and advice? Maybe a library, a bookstore? Oh I know, how about a professional involved in video production? Of course you wouldn't find any of those kinds of people on the internet now would you?:thumbup:
 
I agree with the leko suggestion. I also agree that side lighting is your best bet (at least from what I understand of the geometry). If I understand it correctly, you will not be able to throw light on the speaker from the front without washing out the projection screen.

Since you can focus the beam better with lekos, you should be able to get away with lower power than you would have with fresnels. I think ETC has data sheets for source 4 that will tell you how many foot candles of illumination they will throw at any particular distance. You would also need to get technical specs about the illumination the cameras require. Remember that the cameras can also get too much light.

I imagine that you would get a more useful image if you could aim your light from a steep top angle, since that would cast a slight shadow from the speaker's lips, thus emphasizing them. However, it sounds as though that's not going to be possible.
 
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