Audio Solution..1 person crew....Music Documentary

[Transmission2]

First things first, this site is amazing. I've been reading for two days and Im hooked. Thank you to all who share their valuable knowledge. (One day I hope to do the same.) But I must digress,

So here's my situation.

Crew: Me. I will be Directing, Shooting, and recording Sound. I do have one person who can help, but she has very limited experience.

Camera: HVX200

What: This documentary follows a band as they go into the studio to record their fourth album. Down the road, I may also go on tour with them.

Things to consider:

I will need to mic up multiple people at any given time. Recording an album is a very collaborative process and numerous people will be coming in and out of every situation.

The band hates Boom poles. (they find them too distracting and intimidating.)

What I need to know:

How many mics can I run wirelessly? Im confused about what I need, if say, I wanted four people mic'd with wireless lavs? Can any wireless system run more mics if you buy more mics and recievers? Will they have dropout issues? Do I need a mixer for this? And do I then run that mixer into the HVX or do I purchase digital recorder and record it seperately? (this does, however scare me a little, as I have never done that, and the file management end of things might be a huge pain in the editing room.)

In addition to the wireless, should I use hard-wired mics that i setup in areas around the room where people work stationary? Again, will everything need to be sent to a mixer? Should I employ my helper to man the controls? Also in addition to the wireless and stationary mics, I will probably get a Oktava Hyper to go on my camera. (not ideal to be camera mounted, but better then nothing). Or should I (if I can afford) use a AKG CK69 to cover my ass if people aren't right near the camera?

I guess the answers i need most is the combination of what types of mics to use. I can do all the research about what brands, but in my situation how can I achieve the best sound possible, with basically a one person crew? What mics, what kind of mixer, and what kind of recorder should I use? And how best can I use my helper??

I am a total newbie to the world of sound, but I understand how crucial it is for the success of a film. That's why Im here, doing research, and hopefully preparing myself to make my film sound better than it ever has.

Your help would be tremendously appreciated!!

 

[ozduc]

How many mics can I run wirelessly?

As many as you can afford

Im confused about what I need, if say, I wanted four people mic'd with wireless lavs? Can any wireless system run more mics if you buy more mics and recievers?

You would need 4 transmitters and 4 receivers.

Will they have dropout issues?

Possibly! it would depend on a number of factors. The environment, the type of wireless you use, the amount of RF in the area.....

Do I need a mixer for this? And do I then run that mixer into the HVX or do I purchase digital recorder and record it seperately?

Yes you will need a mixer. How many channels will depend on how many mics you want to run at one time and how mobile you want to be with it. I would run the outputs of the mixer straight into the HVX. Avoid seperate audio recording when possible.

In addition to the wireless, should I use hard-wired mics that i setup in areas around the room where people work stationary? Again, will everything need to be sent to a mixer?

That might be a good way to go. Yes you will need the mixer.

Should I employ my helper to man the controls?

That's your call, but I would hire someone that knows what they are doing.

Also in addition to the wireless and stationary mics, I will probably get a Oktava Hyper to go on my camera. (not ideal to be camera mounted, but better then nothing). Or should I (if I can afford) use a AKG CK69 to cover my ass if people aren't right near the camera?

That would not be good as you wont have a spare channel on the camera to plug into. Have your helper hold a boom mic andd tell the band to "get over it" you are making a documentary for them and it requires that you capture sound.

I guess the answers i need most is the combination of what types of mics to use. I can do all the research about what brands, but in my situation how can I achieve the best sound possible, with basically a one person crew? What mics, what kind of mixer, and what kind of recorder should I use? And how best can I use my helper??

Too much to answer in one thread. Read the stickies at the top of the forum.
Have your helper lug things around.

I am a total newbie to the world of sound, but I understand how crucial it is for the success of a film. That's why Im here, doing research, and hopefully preparing myself to make my film sound better than it ever has.

The best advice I can give is to hire someone that knows what they are doing with sound. I have worked as a professional in TV/Film for years and it is very difficult to do the one man band thing. So for someone that has never done it, to deal with so many microphones, mixer channels, lighting and camera, I think would be almost impossible. Concentrate on one or two areas and let someone else deal with the others. If you dont have a budget to pay anyone then try and find someone as passionate about the project as you and the band, then offer them a piece of the profits, if any are to be had.

 

[Evro]

This is a monster task for one person!!
There are so many variables to this project that without providing more detail you'll only get fragmented advice from this forum.

What is your market for this project (feature film, TV doc, private archive)?
I used to shoot live bands and rockumentaries but got out of it because bands just don't have the cash to fund a professional production.

If the band has the money then my advice is hire an audio guy for the shoot and let him/her take care of the details because as a newbie it will be impossible to do both tasks - there are so many things to consider including mic levels & mic placement to consider. A pro sound guy would either multitrack everything or at least ride the faders during the shoot - something your newbie assistant will have no idea about.

If the band is throwing 80% of their funds on the album recording then you just shoot with good camera mounted mics for the perfomances and with lavs for interviews and keep your level's in check at all times. Also, it's more than just buying or hiring expensive mics. I've done these sorts of jobs with Behringers, Samsons & ultra cheap OEM Chinese mics with superb results - so you might dissapoint some audiophile or golden ear out there - too bad. A good sound guy can do miracles with an ordinary mic, just as a good DP can work miracles with good lighting and an old Hi8 camcorder.

A word of advice - don't get caught up with mic specs & magazine reviews your average punter will never know the difference.

Like I said this is a huge task for one person (albeit you have an unqualified halper) you don't want to compromise your shoot by having to continually worry about the sound.

Good luck

 

[Transmission2]

Ozduc,

Thank you for taking the time to reply and thanks for your insight.

Unfortunately a boom op or boom mic is not in the cards. They really don't want one so I need to be creative and figure out a solution that'll get me by. I was really counting on making use of a good shotgun (camera mounted), but you said i won't have any inputs on my camera left. That scares me a little, so I hope I can make that fly.

 

[Transmission2]

beziermask,

Thank you too!! Sounds like you have some experience in this department. Let me give you a little more information.

We're hoping that this could be a feature documentary that would possibly enter festivals. As well, we will most likely sell it on dvd.

The band has some money, so I think I'll be able to get most of the stuff I need. (within reason, of course)

The big thing with the doc is, they want it to be as intimate as possible, and I completely understand. Recording an album is a complicated endeavor at the best of times, and adding a film crew into the mix could possibly upset the balance. I am friends with the band so my presence isn't bothersome, and that's what they like. That's how their process won't be too disturbed and that's how I'll get an intimate look at what their doing when they're totally comfortable in their surroundings.

The shoot will be tough and long. I am relocating to Portland for two months to shoot it. Hiring someone, a stranger for that matter, would not appeal to the band and probably be way too expensive. This is why Im trying it figure out how I can magically do it all.

I know that this is an impressive amount of work for one person and believe me Im starting to stress out over it. I do believe though, that with enough creativity and smart planning, and with my assistant, I should be able to pull something off pretty decent. Maybe Im being too hopeful, but Im atleast Im going to try. I am going down a week early to start setting things up, and in that time hopefully I'll be able to suss out its feasibility.

Bottom line is, I need to achieve the best possible sound via wireless, stationary, and a camera mounted mic. I really hope I can make this fly. If anyone has been in a situation similar to this, I would love to hear any advice you may have.

 

[wabbit]

Without beating a dead horse, it's not so much an impressive amount of work to take on as an impossible amount...at least to do with any quality. Your results will most likely be something along the lines of your framing and focus going to pot when you are trying to monitor the levels and your levels falling apart as you work to keep the action in frame. Not all the time but enough that your end results will be far less then what they should be.

I would rather put a guy who has an hour of audio instruction in charge of the audio then try and juggle both video and audio for most shots. If you do a single subject sit down interview then one person can handle both ok. As the scene gets more complicated your results will drop drastically.

Nixing the boom is a very bad foot to get started on. For stuff where it is just the band and people you can wire up beforehand then you can survive without a boom but if your subjects are interacting with other people then a boom becomes essential. Surely they can deal with a boom in situations where there are already "strangers" involved in the interactions (Metallica manage to coup with a crew).

Either way you really need to get another body on board to help with the audio. Multiple wireless will require someone to mix, boom will require someone to boom.

It is often a common phobia for subjects of a intimate documentary to be freak out at all the crew people but in reality it takes very little time for them to lighten up and become comfortable with the gear and crew. A two man crew engrossed in their job is fairly easy to ignore after you get over the novelty of it.

Good luck

 

[ullanta]

OK, I'll giove you a different perspective -

I notice everyone previously answering is making the assumption that the band is eager/asking for the doc to be made, but I understand that you may not be in a position to tell them to "get used to it". Let us know what your relationship to the band is!

As primarily an audio recording engineer, I would be reluctant to have foreign wireless equipment in my studio during any real recording session, indeed reluctant to have any extra equipment. But, luckily, the swtudio is a place where it's not awkward to have obvious mics around. And, dare I say it, I've seen a lot of "in-studio" docs that don't have great sound... that is, not great "drama" style sound. These tend to combine board feeds from the music being recorded, feeds from the studio's talkback system, and sound picked up from the many mics already around the studio. Rather than an intimate, dramatic feel... they have a documentary feel. I think you may want to consider this aesthetic. You can also place a few of your own wired microphones at key points.

A good audio person for running the mixer is certainly a good idea, but if you really must go it alone, consider recording multitrack and doing the mixing yourself in post. There are a few reasonably priced devices that will record 8 tracks at good quality... (Yamaha AW1600, Fostex VF160, etc).

Different aesthetic, but it seems more "real" to me because I know I wouldn't want all the trappings of "production sound" in a real studio session....

Just my 2 cents,
Barry

 

[Joe_Kras]

There are no shortcuts that don't have a price to be paid.

If you are going to go it alone (with an untrained helper and no opportunity to boom), then the price to be paid is money (for renting multiple wireless, a mixer, and/or a multitrack recorder) and time (to sync everything up in post).

Given your constraints, Barry's suggestions above may be the best you can get.

BTW, have you looked into how much it's going to cost to rent multiple high quality wireless mics for the duration? If the band is behind this at all, then perhaps a bit of sticker shock when looking at this may convince them that perhaps a boom op may indeed be acceptable.

 

[MattinSTL]

Wabbit... I agree with you at least 99% of the time. Yeah... I think this situation (as it's defined so far) is absolutely impossible.

You won't be digging for magic moments back in the edit bay... you'll be digging for times where there weren't problems in either the audio or video while you concentrated on the other. Depending on the level you expect this production to reach... you may be able to get away with some half-assed solutions... such as on-cam mic'ing some of it... but the whole one man band thing is nuts... it rarely works.

Joe helped me shoot some stuff recently and even when the entire situation is staged I'd say a 2 person crew is the bare minimum when quality is a concern. It's amazing how hard it is to keep everything under control and productive.

 

[wabbit]

Wabbit... I agree with you at least 99% of the time.

Well, don't be too shy to speak up that 1% of the time you are wrong

LOL Just kidding. I had to go there.

Cheers

 

[Transmission2]

Time to talk to the band...

Time to talk to the band...

Thank you guys for giving me your professional opinion on this matter. I truly appreciate it. Taking into consideration what you have said, I am going to talk to the band about the audio situation. Im not sure it will result in me hiring a sound person for two months (6 days a week!!), but the price tag that I give them for a capable wireless system may have them begging for alternatives.

I have actually been through this process with the same band before. On their last record I shot a making of piece. It was a no budget deal, I shot on an XL-1 and my friend actually did record sound with a boom. We also had a wireless mic running a feed from the mixing board, so we got to hear all the 2 way chatter, and listen to raw feeds being recorded. For what we had, it turned out decent. However, this time around I want it to be a lot more professional.

As Ullanta said, I could get away with some mics placed within the enviroment. Utilize the same wireless feed into the board and capture whatever other audio with a good shotgun mic. Not ideal but Im not sure what else I can pull off. I guess in this situation I will need to send the mix to an external recorder. That really scares me so I better school myself in that workflow. I may have my helper do the 'live' mix. Im sure it won't be perfect, but I know it will be better than I can do.

I do agree that this in not a one person job. Believe me Im not looking forward to it. I am going to talk to the band and give them your opinions (and my own) and hopefully we'll come up with a solution.

In the meantime I'll be trying to configure my impossible sound recording scheme and losing sleep over it everynight. I hope I can ask you guys a few technical questions along the way.

Thanks so much!!

 

[timapter]

ha ha! funny dude...

transmission this sounds freakin difficult/impossible.

you REALLY need a mixer for this to work, and you REALLY need someone operating that full time to make the most of it.

As I see this, you have maybe three options:

1) Only a hyper or shotgun on the camera. Combined with maybe a line feed from a sound desk where needed.
2) On camera mic, plus a good boundary mic somewhere strategic in the studio (wireless or not) plus line feeds where appropriate.
3) get a qualified sound person who will give you all the options you could want.



one last note - i know its not your call on the boom thing, but the sad truth is that a boom is actually MUCH less invasive and troublesome than wireless. Its better in everyway except one: range. boom based microphones sound better, are cheaper, easier to deploy, more flexible in unplanned environments, etc etc etc

cheers

 

[Oleg 2]

my 2 shekels
you will need soundman if you intend to catch the action ad the interaction inside the room and you will need separate recorder to record the sessions
and forget about the idia to be one man crew - it never work at least in that kind of gig .

 

[ullanta]

Two months? Six days a week?

Listen, I have full great respect for all the folks telling you this won't work, but again, there're different perspectives. You might want to speak in this case to people involved in things like legal video, weddings, church events, conferences, theater (not to mention opera!), etc... if you're looking at that much time, you might want to look at what people do in terms of permanent installations for complicated but non-obtrusive sound situations.

I am in the one-man-band setup a lot, as are folks in the aforementioned situations. The trick is to distribute the work temporally. For an opera, I spend a few days dedicated to building a bulletproof sound setup before I even think about video; then I set up video and record everything (heavily multitracked); then I mix the audio after the show. So during the show I don't think about audio except to start and stop recording, 'cause I've got a I've got a sound guy I can trust - that is, me a week earlier - and a mixer I can trust (me, a week later).

Hard and seemingly endless work for one person, but doable. If you've spent a lot of time in that studio with that band before, you must have an idea of patterns of interaction you want to capture. Make sure you have a mic reasonably covering each place these interactions will happen. Spend a day or two setting levels on all of 'em so they don't peak during the type of interaction you care about (that is, if you're gonna use a board feed for the music, set the other levels for conversation and don't worry if they peak during musical takes). Find a multitrack solution that will record everything on separate channels. Then, just turn it on and don't think about it (except an occasional "is it actually recording" check) while you concentrate on video (with, say, a camera mounted shotgun to add that touch of flexibility and camera-perspective audio).

If you want an equipment recommendation, I'd suggest something like a Focusrite OctoPre or PreSonus DigiMax which combine 8 preamps with 8 compressors and have a digital (ADAT) out. Run these to a Computer DAW or Fostex VF160EX along with up to 8 other channels of analog audio. Set the compression to be very gentle but protective. With it's 40GB HD, the Fostex will give you 3 or 4 days worth of recording time. Recording to the computer will give you more flexibility in post and easier backup. Or, be a paranoid freak like me, and record simultaneously to the computer and Fostex, and dig into the Fostex only if there's a computer problem. In the one-man-band situation, such redundancy again allows you to think less about the audio during the video recording phase....

Again, take this as you will, as a different perspective. I know you're trying to up your game and certainly following the suggestions of the production-audio experts here would make your job easier and provide more film-like audio... but I also know what it's like when the recording is a secondary concern (at best!) and low-budget. In much of my work I CAN'T use visible mics (that is, not visible to performers or audience, not just "off camera") or wireless mics, and certainly can't have anyone moving in the performance environment. Production folks will tell you it can't be done to their standards. But live theatrical/music/etc. recordists can offer solutions (and can share some darn good recordings produced this way!).

 

[ullanta]

I guess in this situation I will need to send the mix to an external recorder. That really scares me so I better school myself in that workflow. I may have my helper do the 'live' mix. Im sure it won't be perfect, but I know it will be better than I can do.

Again, I dunno - a botched live mix can be useless. A multitrack recording is a godsend in this type of situation - and in fact allows a more perfect result than live mixing. You can tweak and re-tweak the mix to your heart's content later.

I wouldn't be afraid of the external recorder. Record a guide track of some sort to one channel of the video. Sync the audio in large chunks (that is, sync raw takes at the START of the editing process).

 

[Transmission2]

Great insight!!

Great insight!!

ullanta, thank you so much for your insight into this matter. The multitrack recording definitely sounds like it could be my best friend. More work in the end, but I'd rather have better audio. As I've never recorded audio seperately Im nervous about the file management side of things, and what naming conventions to use. I'll need to figure out how to sync things with timecode (not sure) to the camera or some other method. Thank you for the gear suggestions, I will certainly look into those today. Once I plan out a feasible one man show, I can take that to the band and let them know all our options.

Your encouraging words have made my day. I'm going to take your advice and hopefully come up with a combo that works. Another scary part of this plan is finding a wireless system that won't cost thousands of dollars!

cheers.

 

[ptalsky]

There is one thing Ozduc said above that I have to disagree with. S/he said to avoid recording separately when possible. I think you will have better luck having a separate recorder in this situation. Your sound person can be further away from the action (and therefore less distracting), and the camera won't be teathered. You can use a wireless hop to the camera if you really feel you need it, but even the lower cost recorders (Marantz, Tascam, Fostex) offer far better sound capture than capturing directly into the camera.

Most of your other questions are answered above. I agree that you really do need a boomed mic in the mix. If you absolutely cannot have a boom, then get a bunch of Sanken cubs and plant them everywhere.

Good luck!

Phil

 

[Transmission2]

What is the quality difference recording to say, a Marantz deck versus recording to the HVX200? I thought the quality was pretty good on this camera. Can someone explain what the difference in quality equals to?

 

[Oleg 2]

dud , it is not bout quality , its about mobility - befor you waist your money do you self a faiwor and make a pilot to see what you can and what you cant , making films is quit an old business so no one reinventing the wheel anymore .
make sure you bring recorder which can record tc in free run , with or without ext generator , so the sync with your camera will be piece of cake on nle

 

[Transmission2]

You can use a wireless hop to the camera if you really feel you need it, but even the lower cost recorders (Marantz, Tascam, Fostex) offer far better sound capture than capturing directly into the camera.
Phil

I am only asking what the quality difference is because of this comment. Im curious how recording audio to tape versus going to a recorder is different and how different the quality actually is.