DP shot film in 2 different modes!!

S

Spence77

Active member
I'm working on a film where the dp shot 95% of the footage in 24PA and 5% in 24P - and forgot to click the advanced button. I've already captured all of the footage but I need to fix the 24P non-advanced footage for the final edit - it is not in-synch and looks awful - horizontal lines when characters move, repeating frames, etc.... I don't know if i should re-capture it (and on what setting??) or someone said i should re-capture and run it through compressor. Does anyone know the steps?

Thanks!!
Spence
 
I've heard that if a mistake like this is ever made you should just edit your footage on a 29.97 timeline. Since your footage is all progressive, I would think that 24p and 24pa will look pretty similar in a 29.97 timeline. If it was progressive and interlaced in a 29.97 timeline, you would tell right away the difference between the two.
 
yeah but i've already edited the film in a 23.98 timeline. i just want to re-capture this footage (on 3 tapes) and make it work in this timeline.
 
As long as your NLE can properly detect the cadence from both 24PA and 24P I would treat it as two projects. When you finish editing the 5% portion, just export it as an uncompressed file and import that into your 95% project. This would allow you to finish your edit without an impact from the incorrectly shot footage.
 
Take the captured material into CINEMA TOOLS... do a reverse telecine and use the FASTER option... this won't make a seperate file, but what it WILL do is flag the interlaced frames and 'remove' them.

Although I've never tried it with material already IN FCP it should work. I'd trash the renders though and force FCP to 're-see' the clips.

Stay away from Compressor for this.

Open Cinema Tools - hit cancel on the database thingie.

Apple-O and find the clip. Then hit the Rev-Telecine button... again, use the fast option.

Good luck,

CaptM
 
having trouble.. i tried to open a clip in CINEMA TOOLS and do a reverse telecine but the reverse telecine button is greyed out. should i conform? the current frame rate is 23.98. What would i conform it to?

I also tried a "batch reverse telecine" and i get an error message that says "the movie file does not have an NTSC frame rate."

ugh!?!?!
 
wait wait wait...

why is the current frame rate 23.98?

Let's start over...

Your 24pA material should have already removed the pulldown... if not, you can do that in FCP after you've captured it.

Your 24p material should be in 29.97 with NO hope of FCP removing the pulldown. How did you get the 24p material to 24fps????

Oh -- and DO NOT conform.

PM me and I'll give you my phone number if you want...

CaptM
 
basically i don't know what's going on with this footage on these tapes.

i've tried several test to re-import them but i keep having the same problems with the footage - on every 3rd and 4th frame the footage has little horizontal lines on all the movement. i've tried to get rid of the frames capturing several different ways but it still looks jittery on play back.

The other footage (on all the other tapes) that was captured with advanced pulldown removal looks fine. these 3 tapes are have like 2 extra frames or something... i'm very confused.
 
Yes -- two extra frames are correct.

They should be at 29.97. REMEMBER -- 24p is actually 29.97 -- NOT 24 fps.

This is good.

You'll take THOSE into Cinema Tools and rev-telecine and all will be good.

CaptM
 
no -- the OP says he shot in two formats...

24p Advanced
and
24p

I assume he's talking about shooting with the DVX since we're here at this board...

24p in this case is 29.97.

CaptM
 
I made this mistake once... shot some footage in 24P and 24PA, captured everything as regular 29.97 DV/NTSC. And then Cinema Tools to the rescue ;) I remember I did some sort of batch reverse telecine on all the footage and it took care of things very neatly.
 
Capt, let me set this straight. And I'll quote Barry if I may;

"They both are 24fps, and they both are 30fps. The only difference is the way they embed their true 24fps images into the requisite 30fps transport stream.

DV and 1080 DVCPRO-HD are 60i data systems, and can never be otherwise. So if you want to shoot 24fps footage, you have to embed that within a 60i data stream. 24pA does it by simply repeating one frame out of five (which is an oversimplification, but it'll serve our purpose here). So 4 frames get one repeated, which now = 5. Multiply that by six and you see how it adds up: 4x6 = 24, 5x6 = 30. So by padding each four-frame group with one duplicate, we end up with five, and by extension we turn a grouping of 24 frames into 30.

That's how 24pA works. 24P does it a bit more smoothly, by splitting the frames up into fields and occasionally duplicating fields to smooth out the sequence. You end up with four video frames getting mapped across 10 video fields (using 2:3 pulldown; even frames get printed to 2 fields, odd frames get printed to three fields). So 4 frames become 10 fields; multiply by 6 and you see that 24 frames become 60 fields.

24P has a somewhat smoother visual cadence than 24pA. But 24pA is much easier to edit -- you just drop or ignore that one "padding" frame and you're right back where you started, with pure 24p imagery. Whereas with 24P mode, you'd have to uncompress and undo all that 10-field blending/splitting process and extract and recombine the fields into their original frames. It can be done, but why bother? When you can just shoot 24pA instead and it's so much easier to work with.

So the overriding rule is: if editing on a 24p timeline, shoot 24pA. If editing on a 60i timeline, 24P mode will be a bit smoother than 24pA."
 
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Ben --

I don't disagree with what you are saying. But agree with the following...

24p will not come off the camera as 24 fps no matter HOW you capture it in FCP.

24pA WILL come off the camera as 24 fps if you capture with adv pulldown removal.

SO -- if all things were equal he wouldn't be hving the issue he is. So I made the assumption that he used (as he said) advanced pulldown removal on the 24pA clips and just captured the 24p clips as 29.97.

Hence my comment.

You can call both formats telecined... and both can have the cadence removed. But if you have to ask, then I assume again, that you don't know what cinema tools is for and your 24p shot material is actually still in 29.97.

That's all I was saying. Sorry if I confused you.

CaptM
 
FCP can't remove standard pulldown only advanced? If it were me and FCP can remove advanced and normal pulldown I'd just remove pulldown in the right manner for each piece of footage and edit on a 24p timeline...
 
Shaw said:
FCP can't remove standard pulldown only advanced? If it were me and FCP can remove advanced and normal pulldown I'd just remove pulldown in the right manner for each piece of footage and edit on a 24p timeline...
Click to expand...

Correct, FCP cannot remove standard cadence... only advanced... and it doesn't actually remove it but it flags those frames that are interlaced and ignores them. You can check this by showing timecode... the numbers will go to 29 then 00 even though it is 24 fps.

Cool, huh.

CaptM
 
Right, FCP will capture 24p as 30i. It is recorded as 24p in the camera, and just assymbled in a way so you could get the native 24p original recording, but recorded to something that will edit on a normal NTSC-DV 60i timeline, without having to use some 24p effect plug-in.

If you really plan to edit natively in 24p, you really do have to use the 24pA setting.

In fact, about a year ago, I did a comparison with someone who shot regular NTSC-DV with a PD170 and used a 24p plug-in to fake it in a native NTSC-DV 60i timeline. I shot 24pA with the DVX100 in a native 24p timeline. We had them side by side shooting at the same time.

We did a split screen with a mixer for a couple of mintues, then swapped which half of the screen was which, to eliminate the possiblility it was the area being shot that may effect the look.

You guessed it, the native 24p out to VHS tape looked WAY more like film than the 24p plug-in effect on a 60i timeline.

I mean, why buy a PD170 when you put a 24p plug-in on every single clip you ever edit? Just buy a DVX or HVX!

Shaw, you're right, you can shoot 24p, and then use Cinema Tools to do the pulldown. But if you want to edit in native 24p, shoot in 24pA. The two variations exist for two different applications.
 
From what I understand, there was a time when the DVX100 was brand spanking new to the market and very few NLE's could do native 24p editing. But since most all NLEs can do that now, seems Panny would have put only the 24pA on the HVX and dropped the old 24p mode, eh?
 
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