recording improv dialog in a car - advice?

N

nakris

Member
I'm planning a project that has some fairly specific circumstances. Feature length, shot w/DVX100B.

The majority of the movie will take place in a minivan, dialog between 2 actors, as they travel for 5-8 days. The dialog will be almost completely improvised. Usually, they'll be in the driver and passenger seats, though there will be times when one will be lying on one of the back seats, or on the floor in the back of the van.

The camera will mostly be positioned on the dash, aimed "back" at the actors.

There will also be times when they get out of the van: into a diner to eat, up to people's doorsteps to make deliveries.

I've searched the forums, and have a pretty good idea of what the recommended budget audio gear is (Senn G2s, Octava, etc. - but feel free to suggest); my question is really one of technique. Primarily because it's improv and because of the relatively high noise level of a moving vehicle, and because 98% of the dialog will occur between the two main characters, my first thought was to get two wireless lavs. Then it occurred to me that I could probably rig a mount for a MK012 (or 2) on the dash. Save a lot of cash, have non-wireless reliability and non-lav quality. I'd really like to hear what mic setups others would use in this situation.

Basic info per Jeremy's audio questionnaire:
1. What is the budget that we are working with (either immediately or over the next few months)
$1500 max; would love to spend less (wouldn't we all)
2. What type of films are you doing (short dramatic films, feature dramatic, documentary, interviews)
comedy improv feature
3. Are your locations PRIMARILY interiors or exteriors?
primarily car interior
4. Will you be shooting outside at all with sound?
1-3 scenes - could even be written out (or w/o dialog) if need be
5. What level of experience do you have with sound?
almost no audio for video; 7+ years doing location recording for audio-only projects (mostly classical, stereo recordings)
6. What is the outlet you are hoping to have with the projects (DVD release for profit, web distribution, theatrical)
Oh, you know, little indie film breaks out at sundance, nationwide theatrical release. (read: probably DVD)
7. Is this purchase for a specific project or are you looking to purchase a kit for general future projects?
for this specific project, but always like to think forward
8. Why do you feel that it is beneficial for you to buy sound gear versus hiring a professional (or networking for free with a professional) to do your audio?
I love the idea of hiring a pro, but don't feel I can afford it. Especially given the road trip nature of the movie. I expect it to be a really memorable filmmaking experience, but not one a pro would probably put up with (cheap hotels, days away from home, etc.)
9. Will you have a dedicated person to run sound (even a friend to hold a boompole)?
If necessary.
10. Do you notice the difference between good sound and poor sound when you are watching films?
Yes.

TIA!
 
Oops... also meant to specifically ask - should I consider wired lavs, at least for the scenes in the van?
 
This is just my take on how I would approach it...

I would wirelessly mic both actors with G2s, run into a mixer, and then into an external recorder. I might also do a couple of Oktavas with cardiod caps as plant mics but it would depend on the scene and what the actors are doing. Lots of slating, TC, and playing around.

Fun gig...

Minimum as far as ease for this situation:
2x Sennheiser G2s
3 Channel Mixer
External Recorder

I would add a lot more, but to answer your question, this is a great opportunity to hit a rental house: 2x wireless Lectro units are $75/day and mixer $40/day, recorder $25 day. A lot cheaper than buying.
 
Jeremy,
Thanks for the advice. I maybe should have mentioned that I have a tascam da-p1. No time code, but decent preamps. Is it worth considering using that? I'm a bit concerned about sync issues using the tascam, as I plan to do a lot of static master shots. But I'll test this beforehand to see how long a take I can get w/o drift.

Are you recommending an external recorder to avoid recording straight into the DVX, or in addition to (for more channels?).

I'm not adverse to renting, but I'm thinking if I'm spending $300 (4 day week?) on Lectros - more if we go over 5 days - then it'd be really tempting not to own the senns at the end. Especially since the word on the forums here seems to be that the difference between the lectros and the senns is minimized in noisy environments - I'm assuming a minivan qualifies as pretty noisy. I'd considered renting the senns, too.

If it sounds fun enough - you'd be welcome to come along and run sound. The pay is lousy, and we'll have lupe's-like food (inside Charlotte joke) at every meal - what more could you want? ;)
 
mumin,
I'd thought of pzms. It would make for a very easy setup, but I'm concerned about the level of ambient noise. What do you think?
 
Hey nakris, here is my .01 (on sale today, usually .02)...

Jeremy has more audio experience than I but I'd have to disagree about wireless because you are driving...you could be driving in and out of zones that could interfere with you. I shot a wedding once on top of a hill in Seattle and dang interferences kept wreaking havoc with my wireless. You could get all set up and then drive into a zone that interferes.

So...why do you even need wireless? The main purpose of wireless is movement, which your actors won't be doing! It would be so easy to mic them both with wired lavs and hide the wires in a car (tape to ceiling). Thus, here is my recommendation and then explanation...

-Two wired Countryman B6 lavs
-One Oktava MC012 with BBG KSSM mount
-PSC DV ProMix 3 mixer
-cables
This total should come to just about $1500 if you do your shopping.

So here's what you do, wire each actor with a B6 lav then have the Oktava pointing at them both. Get good strong signals and mix between the three in post. The lavs will have a strong "up close" sound and the Oktava might have too much ambient noise, but a mix between the two should sound great. If the ambient noise becomes too great (weather, bumpy road, etc) then you mix more towards the lavs, if the ambient noise gets super quiet (quiet night, new road) then you can cheat more towards the Oktava. This will also set you up nicely for the exterior scenes (use the oktava with bbg) and a kit you will use for some time.

So, if this is too expensive and you know that you will only be filming one actor's lines at a time you could ax the second b6 and the mixer and go both straight into the DA-P1.

In regards to the DA-P1. I filmed a mini-feature (60 min) using an XL1s with all my audio going into a DA-P1 and it synced fine. BUT USE A SLATE!!! Get one at FilmTools and for goodness sakes use it. Trying to dig through audio with no chapter marks and sync up is such a pain.

Anyhow, anyone feel free to tell me why this setup is a bad idea (I can't think of any). It seems to give you the maximum amount of flexibility and CYA options.

-Shawn Nelson
 
I thought the Sanken cub-01 was the mic of choice for auto interiors? Isnt that the recomendation from most on this board. That was the advice, I took to heart, from my reading here? Or is the cub-01 a b*tch to rent?
 
The main reason wireless are recommended is with cables in a moving car you pretty much have to have your sound guy in the car with you otherwise. Some Hollywood productions have been known to stuff the sound guy in the trunk but as this is EXTREMELY dangerous it is very much NOT recommended.

Beyond that there is actually very little consistency in how to get usable audio in a moving car. For a feature, the audio is usually going to ADR anyways as it pretty much takes a perfect storm of planning and luck to get sound that stays cuttable between lines. Even in well treated cars, you have engine noise, road noise, and traffic noise all working against you. If you are using a process trialer on controlled streets with multiply cams to make cutting simpilier you have a better then average chance of pulling it off well. I am guessing you had not originally planned on that but if so much is going to be shot in the car you should probably look into it. At least see how much of an option it is or isn't.

The Cub01 is a dandy little tool for getting good audio in cars. I don't think they are available from most renting houses. Local sound professionals might have one to rent though. Lavs placed near the visors work too. If you got the cash to rent a couple of Schoeps MK41 with a swivel or collete cable, they can be hiding on the ceiling. The hyper pattern will help to cut some of the ambient noise that the omni lavs don't.

The problem with wiring up the actors directly is the seatbelts will create a clothing rubbing nightmare. Additionally you don't want the wireless packs on the small of their back as the metal in the seat and their bodies will absorb most of your rf. The engine and the metal exterior will help eat what's left. The higher you can get the transmitter the better.

The more time you have to experiment with different configurations the better your chances of some success will be.

Cheers
 
the sound mounting is directly relative to your camera position and your actors clothes , sit belt situation , and windows .so as Poul Simon song s say - there is 50 ways to leave your lower - you can mic the car in much more then 50 ways 2 mics from bellow on flexi mounts , 2 pzm from above , 1 pzm from 1 rear one in front , 2 necks , 2 necs on visors , 2 directional mics on visors with swivels .1i in the front and one on the back of one of the sits ,1 lavalier and 1 pzm ,,,,,,and it goes and goes so the best is to plan the shotes , know exactly what is your limitations with a mics setting . plan carefully windows -situation, since this is the most critical part to get good sound and directly influence in mics mounting ,plan carefully the actors clothes if you intend work with lavalieres.keep the car clean from any objects which could make noise .if you can choose the car , benzine engine would be much quiet the n the diesel one not a simple question - so there is no simple answer .
 
Thanks for all the great info and suggestions. I have some additional homework to do based on what I've read here, particularly with regard to the cub01.

Some thoughts that may help clarify some of the issues brought up above - this will be shot in a mini van, and the soundperson (if I even have a dedicated sound person) will be in the back with me (on camera) out of sight. It's part of the script that there's a large crate in the back of the van, so I plan to build it as a 3 sided box that will hide me and the sound person. There definitely will not be a second vehicle, as it just isn't in the budget - so maybe rf range or wired lavs won't be a problem?

Any lav setup will still have to deal w/seatbelts, though.

The shots will be mostly master shots (perhaps all the car shots will), and improvised, so cutting between lines won't happen much at all, and recording one actor at a time is out.
 
Is the vehicle running or are you shooting green screen?

If you are shooting green screen then this becomes easy
 
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