Stepping up to a decent tripod...

Hi Dammit:

There is absolutely nothing crappy about the DV-1. The DV-1 is an entry level product though and for a larger (small) camcorder like the HVX-200 (assuming that is what you have?), it exceeds the weight limit on the DV-1, which is rated at 4.4 lbs maximum. The DV-1 is made for smaller consumer/prosumer camcorders, not the HVX-200.

You would need a minimum of the DV-2 to support an HVX. But wait, if you pack on a FireStore, large battery, matte box, filters, soom control, etc. you will exceed even the DV-2's 6.6 lb maximum capacity.

See how this works? You need to look at the camcorder package you are using and mentally tally EVERYTHING you might ever want to use on it. If you have an HVX, do you ever want to add an M2? Rods? Follow Focus? Say you end up with a potential maximum weight of 14lbs. Better get something rated at 16lbs max weight, that way you have some cushion in case you exceed that. What if you have a FireStore today but decide later to trade that in for the CinePorter and the CinePorter weighs more?

Once you have determined the maximum weight, then look at ALL of the available choices, from cheap to way more than you want to spend. Compare quality, features (know what a lighted bubble level is? Once you do, you will want/need one) and reputation. Rent a few models and try them out or take your camera package to a dealer who will let you try them out on the showroom floor with your camera. Make your decision using your head, not your wallet. Once you decide THE tripod for your needs, then worry about what you can afford. If it turns out you need a $3,000.00 tripod for your needs, you will find a way to buy it.

Assuming you are a professional, buying products like camera support using a criteria like "is it cheap enough?" and "can I afford it?" is the wrong approach. If you can afford an HVX, editing system, carrying case, lights, sound gear, etc. you can afford a professional tripod. If you make your living with this gear, buy something professional.

If you are a hobbiest, disregard all of the above, buy whatever you want, because in the end, it's just for fun, right?

Best,

Dan
 
Agreed - great post - and I hope its taken as advice and not criticism. The davis sanford tripod is a horror to work with - I have one that I only use to mount a jib on (that works well because the jibs weight seems to overcome the stickiness of the head).

I have a bogen 501 - but i never use it -

My cartoni focus is like a godsend - beautiful pans/tilts, REAL fluid head, totaly adjustable counterbalance and tension. I would love a high end sachtler - but the focus does me well. I think the jump from <1000 to the focus is much muh larger then the jump from focus to sachtler (or I am just rationalizing)
 
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Random noob question here. I am looking to get a tripod that can handle an HVX for some basic pans, but I would also like to use it for still photography to provide a very stable platform for long timelapse shoots. What is the little screw mount on the bottom of my HVX and Canon DSLR called? Do most of these $300-$500 tripod support DLSRs and HVX's?
 
Tom Lowe said:
Random noob question here. I am looking to get a tripod that can handle an HVX for some basic pans, but I would also like to use it for still photography to provide a very stable platform for long timelapse shoots. What is the little screw mount on the bottom of my HVX and Canon DSLR called? Do most of these $300-$500 tripod support DLSRs and HVX's?
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The mounting hole on your Canon is 1/4 20 It should be on the HVX as well. I put my Canon 5D on my O'Connor tripod all the time because it is incredibly stable.
 
DammitJanet said:
Well, I can't imagine we'll be putting anything on the camera except maybe a homemade mattebox...
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I should have stated this earlier I guess, but we're getting a Canon XH A1, so any sort of CinePorter or FireStore would be moot. We might invest in a 35 adapter of some sort, but we will consider the weight issues. We are NOT professionals. We've been making indie comedies for the last five years with the minimum essentials, and now we're ready to step up our game. We are NOT going to be charging people for our "services" as videographers or anything of that nature. We're just making indie flicks that we want to see made, and we want to up the quality. Making flicks is neither "just work" nor "just fun" for us. We got into this field because we think it can be both. We're going to be attending film shcool next fall, but we also want to keep making our own stuff outside the school to build a portfolio for after school is done with. That's as much info as I can think to give you at this point.

No, I'm not taking your posts as criticism. I appreciate that you're taking the time to offer your thoughts and experience. That's exactly what I'm looking for. However, please be advised that we're not pros, and we don't intend to be pros for some time. I don't want to buy more than one tripod either, but throwing out options like Sachtlers does nothing for me because I simply cannot and will not spend money I don't have. I mean, if I were a pro shooter working for a production house, that would be a different story. But we're just a small group trying to build our work from the ground up. I hope that helps make things a bit clearer. Thanks so much for your patience and insight. Please keep it up. :)
 
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Hi:

Definitely not intended as criticism, just sage advice ;-)

If I only had a few hundred to spend, I would probably get a Bogen, a 503 head and some appropriate legs. They are good for the money, they are just not very good from a results viewpoint.

You have to accept that you cannot usually get professional level results from a cheap tripod. There is the rubber band on the pan handle trick, there are many otherr tricks to make up for the product's deficiencies.

Another thing I would consider would be forgoing the tripod and get a Cinesaddle. You would be amazed and the looks and moves you can get from these.

Best,

Dan
 
After researching I found that the highest regarded tripods by people who actually own and use them are the high end Sachtlers and these three models which I have narrowed down to...

1. Vinten Vision 3
2. Cartoni Focus
3. Gitzo G-1338/1380 combo

Out of these three, what reccomendation would you make?
I have them listed in order of how likely I am to actually purchase.

Also any recomendations on where to purchase? I am definetly open to offers if anyone has one for sale or would like to point me towards a good seller...

Here are some links that helped me make my decision:
http://dvxuser.com/articles/cartfocus/ (Cartoni focus review)
http://www.viewonline.com/pages/articles/gitzo.htm (Gitzo G1338/1380 review)
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/archive/index.php/t-1337.html (Vinten Thread)
 
Blaine, when I asked about getting a discount for a dolly, the Abelcine
rep told me they didn't do discounts for dvxusers. So do you have to
call a certain rep for a discount or what? Would you know?

Thanks - Charli
 
Charli said:
Blaine, when I asked about getting a discount for a dolly, the Abelcine
rep told me they didn't do discounts for dvxusers. So do you have to
call a certain rep for a discount or what? Would you know?

Thanks - Charli
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Check with Jerrod Haarstad. He's the one I dealt with. If he says the same thing, it's time to let our Jarred know that there's no longer a DVXUser discount at Abelcine.
 
puredrifting said:
Reflex:

You wrote, "I dont know why people spend thousands of dollars. When you can get something just as good for 1/5th the price."

You can't be serious. While the Davis and Sanford is a fine tripod for $200.00, you have obviously not ever used a Sachtler, Vinten or OConnor tripod. They are VERY different than the Davis and Sanford you bought. It's naive to think that they are the same, that's like saying a $300.00 JVC consumer DV camcorder and the HVX-200 are the same because they are both digital and both camcorders.

A $200.00 tripod is not the same as a $2,000.00 tripod, if they were, companies like Sachtler, OConnor and Vinten would have gone out of business decades ago. The technology that they put into the construction of their heads and sticks is nothing short of amazing and the results speak for themselves. Can you do a smooth pan left and tilt down at a 45 degree angle while zoomed in 75% of the zoom range on your camera? I guarantee you would see bumps and jerks in the footage you would shoot with your Davis and Sanford while with a $2,000.00 to $3,000.00 tripod, you could do that same move smoothly, if you have the skills as an operator.

See, that's the thing, I have been shooting film and video for 28 years and even I cannot always get a smooth simultaneous tilt and pan, even with the $500.00 to $700.00 Bogens. In this rare case, it's not the operator, it's the gear, it's not capable of doing this sort of move smoothly because it is not as high a quality fluid head mechanism. The cheap stuff is not a precise instrument, it's a coarse, low-end piece of machinery. The high-end stuff is made to much more precise tolerances, which costs a lot more to engineer and produce.

If you mainly shoot interviews with a mostly locked off camera, I agree, buy a cheap tripod, that's why we have mostly Bogens at the production company I work at, we mostly shoot interviews. But when we go on a TV or film set and have to obtain smooth, jerk-free pans and tilts while tracking action, we use a Sachtler. When we use a jib arm to shoot tabletop, we rent a big old OConnor head because they give the results we need.

Unfortunately, you will go through many tripods in your career. You will soon outgrow your Davis and Sanford, then will probably step up to something slightly better for $500.00 or $600.00, then you will tire of that and will possibly then spend the big bucks to buy something quality. I know, I have done it, everyone I know in this business has done it. The thing is, when you do that, over the long run, you are compromising your end product (nothing looks more amateurish than clunky camera movement) and you are wasting a lot of time and money when if you would have purchased something professional to begin with, it will last you most of your career. Yes, something like a Sachtler is expensive but in the long run, it's not expensive because you can buy it, maintain it and it will give you great results today and tomorrow.

Tripods and grip and lighting are the rare tools in production where they actually devalue very slowly and do not change technology very quickly. If you spend $5,000.00 and buy a Sachtler Video 18 head and carbon fiber legs today, you will be using it well into the future when we are all shooting Ultra HiDef onto virtual holographic RAM storage with some unknown, not invented yet camcorder. A good tripod, light or C-stand will always be a good tripod, light or C-stand.

Just a bit of advice from someone who has gone through all of this and have seen countless hundreds of colleagues go through the same thing. Cheap=short term, replace, upgrade, replace. Expensive=hurts when you shell out the bucks but can last and give you great results for decades.

All the best,

Dan
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hey Dan, thanks for that info. I take back what I said. I guess I figured that in the back of my mind, but didnt' take it into account. I've not been doing this stuff for nearly the same amount of time, (only about 5-6 years), and i'm just comparing the d&s one to a shitty 60 dollar one. But when you compare those two the d&s one is like gold. Even though it is only 200 I WAS really supprised at how nice it is. I mean for me, personally, and for what ive done with tripods, it will last me a long time. But yeah, if you're planning on doing some projects that demand and excellent piece of gear, you're probably better suited to somethingk that has stood the test of time.
 
puredrifting said:
Can you do a smooth pan left and tilt down at a 45 degree angle while zoomed in 75% of the zoom range on your camera? I guarantee you would see bumps and jerks in the footage you would shoot with your Davis and Sanford while with a $2,000.00 to $3,000.00 tripod, you could do that same move smoothly, if you have the skills as an operator.
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Actually I think that would be a good test to try with it. Just to see how good this tripod can handle demanding shots like that for 200 bones. :thumbup:
 
Aftabulis said:
After researching I found that the highest regarded tripods by people who actually own and use them are the high end Sachtlers and these three models which I have narrowed down to...

1. Vinten Vision 3
2. Cartoni Focus
3. Gitzo G-1338/1380 combo

Out of these three, what reccomendation would you make?
I have them listed in order of how likely I am to actually purchase.

Also any recomendations on where to purchase? I am definetly open to offers if anyone has one for sale or would like to point me towards a good seller...

Here are some links that helped me make my decision:
http://dvxuser.com/articles/cartfocus/ (Cartoni focus review)
http://www.viewonline.com/pages/articles/gitzo.htm (Gitzo G1338/1380 review)
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/archive/index.php/t-1337.html (Vinten Thread)
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How does an OConnor 515 head stack up with the ones mentioned above, better or worse? I found an OConnor 515 with a Gitzo G505 tripod for $1500. Good deal? (slightly used....) ? The main thing that Im looking for is smooth movement. I could definetly use some good advice, I will have to purchase one in the next day or so...... I think the used OConnor is the way to go... But for the same price as all th rest of them are new, I just want to be sure....


t_1.jpg
 
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Aftabulis said:
How does an OConnor 515 head stack up with the ones mentioned above, better or worse? I found an OConnor 515 with a Gitzo G505 tripod for $1500. Good deal? (slightly used....) ? The main thing that Im looking for is smooth movement. I could definetly use some good advice, I will have to purchase one in the next day or so...... I think the used OConnor is the way to go... But for the same price as all th rest of them are new, I just want to be sure....
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I'd say that OConnor is better than all three of those, although this one is a little beat up. When it was new, this head probably cost $2500. The newer version of this head was called the OConnor Ultimate DV. OConnor no longer makes either of these heads. AFAIK, the 515 just doesn't have an illuminated bubble level, the knobs are in a slightly different place and the top platform is a little different. But the mechanics are all the same. The counterbalance can be dialed continuously all the way to zero, which no other head can do. The drag is true fluid and the movement is exceedingly smooth. With this head a reasonably good operator can do a good move at wide to medium telephoto every time, but on difficult shots like long telephoto tracking high speed objects, it still takes considerable skill to execute a perfectly smooth move.

If anything, you can always send the head to OConnor in Costa Mesa, CA for a complete overhaul and it'll be as good as new.

A couple of caveats though. OConnor heads are generally larger and heavier than other heads. In that view it looks narrow but these heads are pretty wide. That setup there with those Gitzo legs probably weighs around 17-18 lbs. The Gitzo 505 alone weighs around 9 lbs. Also, it looks like this head has a flat base installed instead of a 100mm bowl base. OConnor heads have interchangeable bases so if you want a bowl, you'd have to buy one which is a couple of hundred bucks. But this one is sitting on a Gitzo bowl leveler so you can still level it.
 
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Hi Tim:

Very astute observations on the OConnor, you have obviously used them a lot. I agree, I rented a 1030 head with a PortaJib last week. Great head but I think that their products are geared more towards film cameras and large, heavy HD cameras like the Sony F900.

Most OConnors would be overkill for a camera like the HVX, although it worked fine for me. But lugging one around on sticks on an all day shoot on a set or event would suck, they are heavy muthas.

Best,

Dan
 
Hi Dan,

Haha, yeah, OConnors do seem like the boat anchors of fluid heads. But the good thing is that they are extremely rigid. You can put them on max drag and your legs will flex way before the head ever does.

I agree nowadays the OConnor product line is geared mainly towards high-end film productions. It's too bad since they have a lot of unique technology. Although I went to a Ringling Bros and Barnum & Bailey Circus show recently and the camera operators were using OConnor 1030B and 2575s. Even with those heads I could tell from the live video who were the better operators.
 
I may be chiming in a bit late here but I thought I'd add that I recently bought an Oconnor 515 w/35a sticks on eBay for around $1000. It was pretty beat-up in some not so critical ways and defininatley is getting an overhaul as soon as I have the time to drive to Costa Mesa, but what continues to amaze me with these heads is no matter how beat they are (if you've rented one you know what I'm talkin' about) they're always a thousand times better than my Bogen 503 on it's best day. I know that may seem obvious, but it wasn't until last week when I had to start a project with my Bogen then switched to the Oconnor after it shipped to me, that the night and day difference became painfully clear.

I guess what I'm driving at here is that you can always upgrade and not break the bank. Ebay is a wonderful thing for finding Oconnor heads or if you want something new, go with what most of the folks on this board recommend and get a Cartoni Focus system. As far as Sachtler, I don't like the fact that all of the lower end only have 75mm ball heads, plus they feel cheap to me somehow. Just a thought.
 
Dan -

I'm in the market for a good, quality tripod and thought of buying the
Cartoni Focus 2-stage system. I see you like the Sachtler. May I ask which
system of Sachtler intrigues you and what is the cost difference between
that Sachtler and the Cartoni.

I'm not going the cheap route with a tripod. I want to buy once and buy a good
quality system. My budget is around $1500.

Charli
 
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