Rap Music and decline of real music

I'm pretty eclectic. My father and mother are Puerto Rican who love Old School 60's and 70's rock (go figure) so I grew up with Santana, Jimmy H., The Doors and so many more I cant even begin to mention. Got all their Vinyls too. I'm Bi-polar, so at the mood swings made jazz attractive by the age of 12, gato Barbieri, coltrane, armstrong and Davis, blues rides with Big Mama Cass and Billy Holiday and my soul would fly with Stevie Wonder.
I got into everything from Chakovsky to Stravinsky and Johann Bach to the Beatles, Mike Jackson and being Puerto Rican of course I got into Salsa.
I'll tell you Salsa (for those that understand the lyrics) and Soul have, for me, the deepest feeling and the most content. But then in 95' I started living in the projects of Trinidad where I was exposed to original Rap: drums and poetry that had been sung by the slaves on the spanish ships. In 97 I was exposed to Tupac and i'll tell you what, it's just like salsa, if you dont get it you just wont get it. Forget the drums, the cursing, strip away everything but the content... if Tupac Shakur had continued his original path of being an actor and stayed away from family influence he would be considered some sort of genius today. I know thats hard for some people to believe, but the content was so powerful for those who took the time to decipher what he was talking about. He quoted everyone from Nicolo Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, Cervantes, Garibaldi, he read almost every book on religion, politics and phycology that means anything in the world today and would incorporate them into his music. If I could explain for a second that freestyle rap most of the time is a jarbled mess of words that rhyme by amateurs who are making the song up on the spot, Tupac would string whole stories with incredible political content in the matter of seconds, sometimes Rhyming at every other word for a full three minutes without compromising the story. Imagine what that intelligence and talent could have done in the right hands.
I havent really heard any good hip hop since Sean Carter left the scene but Rap for those who new how to tell the real story was as good a music as any other out there... like Polka for instance.
 
Hate is such a strong emotion to waste on something so pointless.

But K-FED sucks, and I hate him too. So, hmph.
 
Nathyn said:
Honestly pop music is only good for producing skinny blonde girls (many with ties to Disney) with questionable musical talents. Who watches Britney Spears for her "music". Honestly I think she's cute and like to see her dance (if one can call it that) but I feel about her like I did about Madonna in the eighties. Conversely (to my suprise) after listening to old mix tapes Madonna actually had quite a few songs I liked. I think some of Brit's stuff is cute but I'm a grown man so it's just not the same. Alanis maybe be scary but musically she's alright. (and has been scary for awhile - I think she lost something). I'll admit Christiana actually has talent and Shirkira is a great dancer (her incorporation of belly dance is certainly nice). For me Kelly Clarkson is high energy and generally fun to watch.

I am a rock man myself, but will admit I prefer the "new" Metalica. See my music was Phil Collins (if you don't know "In the Air Tonight" is one of the songs that inspired Miami Vice), Michael Jackson (when he was a black guy), Janet Jackson, Bon Jovi, Steve Winwood, Jody Watley and a host of others. Rappers like PM Dawn (poetic rappers), KRS1 and Public Enemy (self-education rappers) were all the rage then.

All of this music was wiped out by the horrible hip-hop stylings of people like Luke and his "2 Live Crew" and NWA. While this was alright when thrown into the mix it became a staple of the hip-hop genre and took over everything else. What happened to songs like "Get yo momma off of crack" which was great song about crack in the innercity. The question being how does one keep the children off of drugs when the parents are on drugs. We don't get a lot of stuff like this anymore. Let's not pretend "Milk D" was a message rapper but while the song is actually somewhat funny the message was serious. Remember "Self Destruction" and Public Enemie's "Fight the Power" and their hit with Anthrax "Bring the Noise"? Remember the first rock/rap hit (Aside from Blondie's questionable stray into hip-hop territory): Walk this Way (Run DMC and Aerosmith). I'm only in my thirties but this is making me feel old so I'm going to stop now.

The 90's ushered in Nirvana who I liked, (but I can't stand Pearl Jam). Cobain's incoherent rambling were fun to try to unravel to figure out what the heck he was was talking about. I actually found one song was about Courtney Love (Frances Farmer will have her Revenge on Seattle) which I discovered after watching a doc on Kurt and Courtney and findng out her name was Frances Farmer. I liked Soundgarden and Redhot Chilli Peppers are tight too (but even they incorporate hip-hop elements). Rob Zombie makes some interesting stuff (If I had a budget I would incoporate some of his stuff into my action films) but I think he's found a way to make every song from the Dragula beat.

As far as white rappers go Beastie Boys were an all around fun group who didn't really try to be black as much as they just had fun with the music. I think the new breed of white rapper is more savy, some do try to be "down" while others just do their own thing, but like I said the money is on the teenage girl. K-fed's album will drop and if MTV plays his videos he will make a little cash. The smart thing to do is get a little fame here and shop it to the overseas video stations as much as possible - I'm famous in (insert european country here).

Music is a universal language and I find it funny how actually devisive it has because. Does anyone remember in the late eighties/early ninties when we had rock, hip-hop, R&B and all the other genres and they all existed under one nice unberella. I mean you simply listened to it or not.

Things seemed to have changed drastically and everything is about will the music sale and yes with hip-hop everyone's pimping it but nothing's new. Rappers like Common don't have a shot without half naked booty shakers in the video. I don't mind a booty shaker for time to time but it's gets to be a bit much. And what about CiCi Dobson? A black girl who rapped over rock. No one was having it, but Kid Rock is all good. I don't know. These are things I just noticed. I was around to get to see some things change drastically when it comes to music and I'm a music lover. I was making videos in my head before MTV existed. I think many of us did the same.



I've seen this before. It's actually very interesting how money is acutally made in the music industry.


You're not alone.

-Nate
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Great takes Nate

You have an insighftul knowledge on music
 
I'm pretty impressed with how this thread started out about a very insignificant blip on the music radar, one which prob. won't make it to VH-1's one hit wonder program in 10 years (is there such thing as a no hit wonder?)

And has turned into a pretty interesting discussion on music in general. If there was a way to change the title of the thread we should, so that some of the people who deliberately avoided it would come into the fray.

As for the music, I think that what makes music good or not is how each person feels about any given song. Unfortunately, record labels and radio stations have decided they have to categorize everything so that market research has reared its ugly head very deep into what music is being exposed. Probably very similar to film as far as what gets made by studios and who gets the marketing muscle.

Actually, one of the stations here in Chicago, Q101, which I avoided for about the last 10 years has become one of the better stations in the city. They had become the "alternative" station - which means playing the same bad pearl jam knock off bands over and over - then all of a sudden in the last year, they changed their whole thing around and do "shuffle" - which means you don't like everything you hear, but get a much more eclectic mix of things that aren't necessarily in that genre (they play Run DMC, Bob Marley, The Cure, the Clash... along with today's rock). I don't know if other cities have this type of station but I hope it catches on more b/c radio has gotten to be so homogenized (sp.?)

Anyway, this is obviously a topic that most people feel pretty strongly about and this has been a pretty interesting debate to follow esp. b/c there's clearly very different opinions, but no name calling or mud slinging... yay team!
 
What's with all the faggy obsession with K-Fed. Creepy stuff guys. Just go stalk him and videotape it. Don't forget to use a 35mm adapter of course.
 
John_Hudson said:
Great takes Nate

You have an insighftul knowledge on music
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I was actually around to see it change. It's such a dramatic difference between now and then. I actually do music now. I'm very new to it but I'm doing the score and soundtrack for my film. I do rock-hop, pop and there's even some country rock. (I also have a bluegrass song that turns into a dance trance song) but it's all done electronically. I hope to be able to add a guitar to USB adapter soon but until then it's me and the midi keyboard and Garage Band.

GlimmerGhost said:
if Tupac Shakur had continued his original path of being an actor and stayed away from family influence he would be considered some sort of genius today. I know thats hard for some people to believe, but the content was so powerful for those who took the time to decipher what he was talking about. He quoted everyone from Nicolo Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, Cervantes, Garibaldi, he read almost every book on religion, politics and phycology that means anything in the world today and would incorporate them into his music.
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You're right about this. Many people didn't pay attention to Pac until he was shot. Most people don't listen to Hip-Hop for the lyrics unless they're listening to a rapper known for lyrics (Jay-Z, Emeniem, Biggie). This why people are freaking out over 3-6 Mafia's lyrics now because people are actually listening to them. But if you listen to Pac's lyrics the dude was on some serious stuff but I think he got caught up in the whole gansta thing and by the time he tried to make it out it was too late.

bigteethproductions said:
Actually, one of the stations here in Chicago, Q101, which I avoided for about the last 10 years has become one of the better stations in the city. They had become the "alternative" station - which means playing the same bad pearl jam knock off bands over and over - then all of a sudden in the last year, they changed their whole thing around and do "shuffle" - which means you don't like everything you hear, but get a much more eclectic mix of things that aren't necessarily in that genre (they play Run DMC, Bob Marley, The Cure, the Clash... along with today's rock). I don't know if other cities have this type of station but I hope it catches on more b/c radio has gotten to be so homogenized (sp.?)
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I love what's going on with Q101 right now and it is a lot like old times. I want to hear some Duran Duran. (Notorious would be nice, I think it was underplayed).

-Nate
 
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Nathyn said:
but I think he got caught up in the whole gansta thing and by the time he tried to make it out it was too late.
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Ain't that the sad truth. I remember in an interview he said acting was his real passion and then went on to say that his rapping personification was the real act, I guess it was a way for him to protect himself like a coat of armor. It ended up killing him though.
 
I wish more brothers would go back to rock 'n roll. I still prefer listenig to Jimi Hendrix or even Lenny Kravitz over anything hip hop is producing right now.
 
Who cares about who likes or dislikes rap music? Does it really matter or affect your personal choice in music? What a waste of time this thread is. Go take a dump and wipe your bunghole with the national enquirer and then roll it into a big ball and swallow it. Then get your damn video camera and go outside and do something constructive.

Once again I do not actually endorse the above actions and take no personal responsibility in your actions. Thank you come again.
 
Walked into a store in the mall today, a clothing store... that carries some halfway decent stuff... and lo and behold, rap music with a video was playing on the TV... I just shook my head as I listened to the "art" lol... I just can't stand it, or know how it's even counted as music...
 
John_Hudson said:
I think Rap is the worst thing to happen to the world of music.
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Brandon Rice said:
Walked into a store in the mall today, a clothing store... that carries some halfway decent stuff... and lo and behold, rap music with a video was playing on the TV... I just shook my head as I listened to the "art" lol... I just can't stand it, or know how it's even counted as music...
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You guys could not be more wrong.

Rap Defined

As a renknowned hip-hop historian, I have to say something here as I've only attended about 200 conferences on music in the past 10 years and this Rap bashing comes up again and again. We old skool guys have to educate the younger kids today who are at a disadvantage as they are only seeing what MTV feeds them.

So, lemme pull out the best quote on Rap music ever spoken:

"...the fact that rap music is not music. It's rap over music." -Chuck D of Public Enemy

Most rappers never said they were musicians or that they were music themselves. Rappers are MC's which means Master of Ceremonies. MC's are vocalists, party starters, poets. Unplug James Brown for instance, and what you have left is an MC, a rapper, a lyricist.

Shakespeare, if alive today, would totally eat up rap as his favorite genre. It's all words, poetry; even the delivery styles, called flows, are too numerous to count. It's art and style through and through.

The DJ element of hip-hop is the musical part, which is 'technically' wrong as they are actually music editors unless they are playing the instruments themselves. Until about 1992, they mostly took bits and pieces from all genres and formed new compositions.

Not unlike, hmm, ANDY WARHOL? :Drogar-Evil(DBG):

The rest of hip hop, the gangsta rap, the clothes, the materialism, is all a recent invention due to the guys finally getting paid. Ignore it, as it has nothing to do with the artform itself.

The decline of Pop Music

With that settled, you're right about the decline in POPULAR music, but not in music in general.

Popular music has gone fashion first, it's all looks now, not sound or talent. Bob Dylan said it right when recently stated that there hasn't been a good sounding record in nearly 20 years. But he was referring to the technical nature of overusing compression and having no dynamic range, not the content itself. Today's records are just loud, over compressed noise. Rip a new pop CD into a waveform editor, and rip Dark Side of the Moon. You can see for yourself. :crybaby:

There is still supreme musical talent. Sufjan Stevens comes to mind. So does Neko Case. And Talib Kweli. And Dead Prez.
No one likes that thug rap crap except white suburban kids anyway. :love4:

iTunes staff picks is a great place to find the best music out there today. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
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Brandon Rice said:
Walked into a store in the mall today, a clothing store... that carries some halfway decent stuff... and lo and behold, rap music with a video was playing on the TV... I just shook my head as I listened to the "art" lol... I just can't stand it, or know how it's even counted as music...
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There isn't much rap music out there now adays Brandon, mostly it's hip hop and it's commercial. I hate modern Hip Hop and what it's become, beats & tunes without meaning or content. But Rap is almost dead, Hip Hop is all thats left.
Kind of like listening to Justin Timberlake, Britney Spears or Usher.
Compare those three to Prince, Christina Aguilera and Marvin Gaye. You might think they are the same but the category is completely different.

EDIT: Flintmi, you did your job well in educating. I've always wanted to explain the difference in hip hop and Rap to people to no avail. The first rap didn't even rhyme, it's all about the poetry.
 
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Yeah, I mean, I group hip-hop and rap together... buncha dudes ryhming words to a stolen ripped off beat (One sounded like an old Depeche Mode song) and they (hip-hop artists) just speak the ryhms, they don't even sing man.
 
Brandon Rice said:
Yeah, I mean, I group hip-hop and rap together... buncha dudes ryhming words to a stolen ripped off beat (One sounded like an old Depeche Mode song) and they (hip-hop artists) just speak the ryhms, they don't even sing man.
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Right on brother:thumbsup:... tell me more Brandon from your soul, feel it in your bones and post with poetry and soon you too will be a'rappin your Bricemanning! :grin:
 
I think the rap debate is stupid.

for the record ...

I like a lot of rap music.

When I was 11 I had cardboard box taped to the floor in my garage to try to do all that spinning stuff and never got anywhere.

When Dr. Dre and Snoop hit 90ish? their CD's were always on in my Jeep.

The only rap I've purchased in years is Outkast, though.

BUT ...

I don't get the point of arguing about it. I mean lets start a thread called "the color blue sucks" and then argue about it - you can't because everything is opinion.

THERE ARE NO FACTS ... you can trace roots and beginnings of things and ARGUE but not PROVE influences and the effect this or that didn't have but it's all CONJECTURE.

I wish the rules here stated No Politics AND No Debating Whether Rap is Music or Not, because this foolish conversation which ultimately always boils down to people's opinions does keep coming up over and over again -- about every six months I think.
 
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Jack Daniel Stanley said:
I mean lets start a thread called "the color blue sucks"
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Douglas Adams in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy said:
"It consisted in large part of the engineers and researchers who had built the Heart of Gold — mostly humanoid, but here and there were a few reptiloid atomineers, two or three green slyph-like maximegalacticans, an octopoid physucturalist or two and a Hooloovoo (a Hooloovoo is a super-intelligent shade of the color blue). All except the Hooloovoo were resplendent in their multi-colored ceremonial lab coats; the Hooloovoo had been temporarily refracted into a free standing prism for the occasion"
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Clearly proving once more that Blue is Mosdef inetly a cool ice breaker at parties. (I stayed on topic didn't I?)
 
Jack Daniel Stanley said:
I don't get the point of arguing about it. I mean lets start a thread called "the color blue sucks" and then argue about it - you can't because everything is opinion.

THERE ARE NO FACTS ... you can trace roots and beginnings of things and ARGUE but not PROVE influences and the effect this or that didn't have but it's all CONJECTURE.

I wish the rules here stated No Politics AND No Debating Whether Rap is Music or Not, because this foolish conversation which ultimately always boils down to people's opinions does keep coming up over and over again -- about every six months I think.
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Yes. Thanks Jack. Agreed 100 percent. These debates boil down to who speaks loudest.
 
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