is it the tripod's head -- or mine?
- Thread starter powerdog
- Start date
kenackr
Well-known member
powerdog,
I have the same head AND the same problem. I continue to practice it several times a week, and while making some progress, am still not happy with the results. I've played with the fluid drag and the arm height, but haven't found tha magic touch yet.
I wish someone would tell us the inner secret of how to get it smoother. I'm beginning to wonder if a motorized pan and tilt device is the answer.
Ken
I have the same head AND the same problem. I continue to practice it several times a week, and while making some progress, am still not happy with the results. I've played with the fluid drag and the arm height, but haven't found tha magic touch yet.
I wish someone would tell us the inner secret of how to get it smoother. I'm beginning to wonder if a motorized pan and tilt device is the answer.
Ken
HorseFilms
Look ma no hands
Have you tried panning by actually gripping the base of the head instead of the pan handle? That works really well for me.
Frizzle Fry
Well-known member
Could it be that your OIS is on? If so, that may be your problem.
HorseFilms
Look ma no hands
One more thing. There are separate drag control knobs for pan and tilt. Do you have the pan knob (under where the camera sits) set for max resistence? Sorry, just trying to cover all bases.
kenackr
Well-known member
Powerdog,
I haven't tried anything more upscale than the 503, but an EVS salesman that I've bought some gear from said the Cartoni Focus was dream smooth and he'd never go back. No conflict of interest there, right?
I have tried cheaper gear that was borrowed and actually thought I got better pans with it. Go Figure! Bogen are you listening?
Horse,
I'm going to try holding the head and see what happens.
Are you guys using the LCD or the viewfinder as you pan?
Maybe I need to take tai chi classes!
Ken
rogar-BigGrin(DBG)
I haven't tried anything more upscale than the 503, but an EVS salesman that I've bought some gear from said the Cartoni Focus was dream smooth and he'd never go back. No conflict of interest there, right?
I have tried cheaper gear that was borrowed and actually thought I got better pans with it. Go Figure! Bogen are you listening?
Horse,
I'm going to try holding the head and see what happens.
Are you guys using the LCD or the viewfinder as you pan?
Maybe I need to take tai chi classes!
Ken
rogar-BigGrin(DBG)
bigteethproductions
Well-known member
My 503 works great (so far)
My 503 works great (so far)
I have a 503 head on 525 legs. I actually bought the store model since it was the last they had and I wanted it for the next day, plus a little price break was nice.
So far (and I've only used it a handful of times) the pans feel very smooth, as do the tilts. Then again, the last tripod I had was a plastic piece of junk so it could only be better - but it doesn't seem as if its only by comparison that its better, I notice it being a lot more stable and going where i want it to go, then stopping when i want it to stop...
My 503 works great (so far)
I have a 503 head on 525 legs. I actually bought the store model since it was the last they had and I wanted it for the next day, plus a little price break was nice.
So far (and I've only used it a handful of times) the pans feel very smooth, as do the tilts. Then again, the last tripod I had was a plastic piece of junk so it could only be better - but it doesn't seem as if its only by comparison that its better, I notice it being a lot more stable and going where i want it to go, then stopping when i want it to stop...
BrianMurphy
Veteran
I am always nervous about offering advice to such a bright young group of film-makers but Iwill take a chance here... The old adage you get what you pay for is true in most cases and very true with pan/tilt heads. I use Sachtler, not cheap but excellent.
My I suggest, if your pan is on the same plane (you don't need to tilt up or down) you can try an old trick we used on days after way too much ...after we had a jar or two too many...and the wide shot of scene looked shaky and the editor would be pissed if I sent it on the bird...tie a length of sash cord to the panhandle and pull it gently. It is sometimes easier to maintain consistant tension. If the shot looks jerky after a few attempts...itis probably the head and time to cruise for a good high end used one onebay or craigslist.
Cheers.
My I suggest, if your pan is on the same plane (you don't need to tilt up or down) you can try an old trick we used on days after way too much ...after we had a jar or two too many...and the wide shot of scene looked shaky and the editor would be pissed if I sent it on the bird...tie a length of sash cord to the panhandle and pull it gently. It is sometimes easier to maintain consistant tension. If the shot looks jerky after a few attempts...itis probably the head and time to cruise for a good high end used one onebay or craigslist.
Cheers.
I guess it's simple logic that when you pay more, you get smoother pans & tilts. Assuming the same weight range, there's not much else that more money would buy.
Brian, happy to be part of the "young" group at my age! A rare honor.
I could try the cord, but I'd think that would be more effective if the prob is that the operator is unable to move his own arm and shoulder smoothly. If it's erratic resistance from the head, you'd almost have to predict the places where the stronger resistance begins and increase your force at that moment. In fact, that's what I do now with a regular pan -- as best I can.
I guess that Cartoni Focus is the one everyone likes.
BTW, can someone tell me what the advantages are of 2-stage tripod over one? I'd think 1-stage would be more convenient, but not able to be set as low.
Brian, happy to be part of the "young" group at my age! A rare honor.
I could try the cord, but I'd think that would be more effective if the prob is that the operator is unable to move his own arm and shoulder smoothly. If it's erratic resistance from the head, you'd almost have to predict the places where the stronger resistance begins and increase your force at that moment. In fact, that's what I do now with a regular pan -- as best I can.
I guess that Cartoni Focus is the one everyone likes.
BTW, can someone tell me what the advantages are of 2-stage tripod over one? I'd think 1-stage would be more convenient, but not able to be set as low.
moe_snodgrass
Well-known member
I have the Cartoni Focus and it's good but it still takes practise to get em smooth. Some people use a rubber band or elastic attached to the arm to pull on creating a buffer between lousy head and shakey hands. I have experimented with this but abandoned it because one must practise a whole new technique. My best results come by limiting the distance of any pan; that is, I can get a smooth pan every time if I limit it to 45 degrees or less but can rarely keep it smooth for more than 45 degrees.
tnle2
Well-known member
I have a Bogen 501 and one of the newer OConnors, which is arguably the finest fluid head around (Hollywood uses 'em so they must be good!). The OConnor is about 20 times as expensive as the 501 and IMO there is a significant difference in build quality and performance.
But I was humbled to find out that even with the finest equipment, on some shots you still need a lot of practice and skill. I now have a much greater respect for skilled camera operators who know how to operate on a tripod. The hardest shots tend to be:
- Long telephoto tracking high speed object over a large arc
- Long telephoto very slow creeping pan and tilt
Like Moe said, it's very hard to do a move over more than 45 degrees and keep the whole shot smooth. What happens is after about 90 degrees, you physically have to reposition yourself in order to keep an eye on the VF and still pan around. Doing this usually causes a wobble.
But I was humbled to find out that even with the finest equipment, on some shots you still need a lot of practice and skill. I now have a much greater respect for skilled camera operators who know how to operate on a tripod. The hardest shots tend to be:
- Long telephoto tracking high speed object over a large arc
- Long telephoto very slow creeping pan and tilt
Like Moe said, it's very hard to do a move over more than 45 degrees and keep the whole shot smooth. What happens is after about 90 degrees, you physically have to reposition yourself in order to keep an eye on the VF and still pan around. Doing this usually causes a wobble.
I've been looking on so many websites, I don't remember where I saw these ideas, but I did read that:
1. Some people gave up on the Cartoni Focus because it doesn't stay in place at the end of a pan...ie, it backs up along the arc a little.
2. The Vinten is designed to give you a smooth start and stop, with a bit
more resistance applied and then decreased gradually.
Tnle, are you using that O'Connor with a DVX or similar, because on their website I can't find anything appropriate for a 5 lb camera. They start around 30 lb capacity, no? The smallest head I found compared to a 501, it would be like a Sherman tank compared to a VW Beetle.
1. Some people gave up on the Cartoni Focus because it doesn't stay in place at the end of a pan...ie, it backs up along the arc a little.
2. The Vinten is designed to give you a smooth start and stop, with a bit
more resistance applied and then decreased gradually.
Tnle, are you using that O'Connor with a DVX or similar, because on their website I can't find anything appropriate for a 5 lb camera. They start around 30 lb capacity, no? The smallest head I found compared to a 501, it would be like a Sherman tank compared to a VW Beetle.
tnle2
Well-known member
That's Vinten's progressive drag instead of linear drag. The drag force decreases as you pan faster, which allows you to do a whip pan on heavy drag. With linear drag, like on an OConnor, you can not do a whip pan on heavy drag but the start and stops are still very smooth. I've read the patent on how Vinten does their progressive drag and its basically a combination of fluid drag and friction drag.
I'm not sure what to think of Vintens. I've never be able to find one in person to test out so I can't draw any conclusions. I've met some people who liked Vintens and others who hated them. But the large Vinten Vector heads are almost always used in studios with pedestals and for sporting events. Next time you watch a ballgame, look at the big camera with those big box lenses, you'll probably see a Vinten head underneath it.
I have an OConnor Ultimate DV head. It's basically a newer version of the OConnor 515. It's designed for up to 18-24 lbs but because of the unique OConnor counterbalance I can dial it down to pretty much zero. They stopped making this head so the smallest head now is the 1030B/HD.
I'm not sure what to think of Vintens. I've never be able to find one in person to test out so I can't draw any conclusions. I've met some people who liked Vintens and others who hated them. But the large Vinten Vector heads are almost always used in studios with pedestals and for sporting events. Next time you watch a ballgame, look at the big camera with those big box lenses, you'll probably see a Vinten head underneath it.
I have an OConnor Ultimate DV head. It's basically a newer version of the OConnor 515. It's designed for up to 18-24 lbs but because of the unique OConnor counterbalance I can dial it down to pretty much zero. They stopped making this head so the smallest head now is the 1030B/HD.