reality check on trying to boom the shot from hell...

M

matthewd5

Veteran
ok. i had a shot today that i do not think could have been boomed unless there was some sort of a compromise on the desired framing etc.

to keep it short...

external daytime shot.

the director wanted a really wide shot and wanted to stay with that framing etc. all the way through.

the actors (2 adults and one child) were to start out the scene standing on the front porch of an average single family house with a decent sized front yard.

from the front porch was one or two small steps down and then a brick walkway that went paralell with the front of the house and led to the driveway.

the camera was approximately 25-30+ ft away from the front porch.

the camera also had a wide angle adaptor on it...

they wanted the dialog to start on the porch and then continue as the actors walked down the walkway to their car in the driveway.

there was dialog back and forth right from the porch to the driveway.

the framing was such that the top of frame showed up to the gutters and maybe a little above and it showed the entire facing of the house on the right side of the frame and on the left side of the frame you had a small grouping of shrubs about 2.5-3 ft tall and beyond that just the lawn.

the walkway was maybe 3-3.5 ft wide.

to the left of the walkway you could see at least 10-12 ft of lawn.

so again, this was to be a one shot while the three actors were walking and talking.

i was using my ktek boom which is 12' 8"

i couldn't boom from above because the shot showed the airspace for at least 15-20 ft above the walkway.

i couldn't even boom from the side because even with the fairly long pole the closest i could have gotten to the actors without myself being in the shot was probably about 8-10 ft LONGER than the boom

i couldn't boom from below because the walkway and the actors feet where in the shot from the start when they were standing on the porch right up until they got to the driveway.

the only compromise the director would make was to reframe it a very little bit so that i could squat down so i was like 3 or 3.5 ft tall PLUS hold out the boom which was still at least 6-8 ft from the actors and on top of all that i had to keep up with them at a normal walking speed without letting my head come up to be seen over the shrub!

wireless in my opinion wasn't an option because all of the interior audio was recorded using my new schoeps cmc6/mk41 and my external boom mic is a senn 416 in a ktek zepp.

my wireless is one set of senn g2 and one set of the previous generation.

i just couldn't see mixing the schoeps and senn 416 even if i put the sanken cos-11's on my plug on transmitters.

plus the director didn't even really want to talk about wireless unless i had three of them.

i have two sanken cos-11 lav's and one of my suggestions was that if they did a master shot initially and then cut to a 3 shot that was still fairly wide but framed so you couldn't see the actors feet or at least the ground right below/around their feet. i was going to put one lav on the child and put the other one on the actor playing the father but place it not in the normal center but a little bit farther over so that the mothers voice would come through as well. or put it on the mother and have it off center to get the fathers dialog.

but that wasn't good enough. we HAD to have the superwide master shot for the whole thing with no cuts or framing changes.

the way i saw it was that there are four places in framing the shot where there could have been a fairly small compromise that would have allowed me to either boom it or even mount the 416 on a pistol grip (the snazzy one i got from mattSTL)

but it kept coming back to a long walk and talk with no stopping or cuts.

was i unreasonable because i didn't find a way to crawl on my hands and knees holding the boom pole in my teeth and capturing the audio that was at least 8 ft from the end of the boom pole/mic???

i had thought a fair compromise would be to either reframe so i could get just close enough to boom them as they walked or to start with the wide/master shot and then change to a 3 shot that was just wide enough that i could still boom but get the look of the walk and talk that was desired.

i mean sure, i would have loved to reach in my bag and pull out 4 of the digital hybrid lectrosonics wired with cos-11pt's

but this is a two day 6 minute short and i am of course just doing it for the experience.

please come right and tell me if there is something stupid i missed.

the only thing i could think of was a really low little red wagon and i could lay on that and have someone pull me with a rope attached to the handle on the wagon.

matthew
 
I guess just boom from eight or however many feet away and when the director complains about the audio being bad, just tell him it's no ones fault but his own.

I was just sound recordist on a short where the director spent 16,000.00 and refused to spend any more then 300.00 on audio rentals (for the entire seven day shoot). He'll get what he paid for, there wasn't anything else I could do about it.
 
The boom was likely the wrong tool for this job.

If the shot is that wide, how tiny are the people in it? And if they're so tiny that you can't really gauge lip-sync properly, I might have suggested doing the old Rodriguez trick, which would be that as soon as they nailed the take exactly the way the director wanted it, then run through it again having the actors do and say everything exactly the same way, only this time don't even bother running the camera, just do it for sound. Capture some great quality sound "wild", and then sync it in post. You will probably have to cut around some air gaps to stretch or shrink gaps to keep it in sync, but if they're really tiny on-screen it shouldn't be too much trouble, and that way you'll have a much higher quality sound source to start with.
 
yeah i really did mention that option too.

i knew we could do boom on the last half or at least the last third of the walking and i really don't think anyone could see their mouths well enough to notice small differences.

it was frustrating because their was no budging. there was so many things that could have just been adjusted a little bit and we could have gotten the shot and moved on.

i mean someday i'll get a couple pairs of the really good wireless but on such a small project with such a small crew and short schedule you have to be a little bit flexible.

everything i suggested were ways to get pretty much exactly what her dream shot was but to get it with decent audio without crawling on my belly with the boom and the 744 and the 442.

matthew
 
not a boom job. 8 feet is rubbish. i would have used your two wireless, isolated to tracks of the 744, and wired the three actors in such a way as to hope to cover the third with a mic on someone else - wide shot means hiding mics wouldnt have been as difficult. I would have also done my best with the 416 on boom where possible (say the last third like you mentioned), and maybe even tried to bring the 641 into play as a plant mic somewhere. you have the iso ability, so I would have tried to use it.

Then comes wild tracks - LOTS of wildtracks. A static wild at about 1-2feet with the 416, and also a walk and talk wild with boom at 1-2feet.

Even if you DID have Lectro 400 series stuff with cos11's, I would have run a wild on this as an option.
 
That's a tough shot, all right. If the location was quiet enough, a Senn. 816 would have given you a bit more reach, but that's an academic point if you didn't have one on hand at the time. I would have used the 2 wireless as best I could to capture the actors, with the boom mic on a separate channel (to cover foley and get you away from that extra-dry wireless sound). However, as Barry Green observed, wild takes would really save the day on that shot. If the director and DOP will tolerate having a mic in the shot during rehearsals and blocking, that can be an excellent opportunity to get some wild takes without holding up the works. Since non-linear recorders make it so easy to keep track of wild takes, I've gotten into the habit of rolling wild alternates whenever possible. Just make sure that you keep everything clearly labelled for the picture and dialogue editors.
 
All the possible options have been covered. Wireless was your best choice. If the production is too cheap for wireless and a plant mic would not save the day, then wild takes and rub a lamp. Really wide usually doesn't have much lip sync, even on the big screen. You do your best but if the producer does not provide the proper funding and will not work around those funding limitations it is entirely on him.

Wild takes before you shoot are pretty hard to get in the DV world where insecure director roll on everything. More often then not the performance changes dramatically by the time you get a circle take anyways. If the director won't pause before moving on for wild takes then make it crystal clear to him that it is his name he should be cursing in post and not yours.

For future reference, I always learn the talent count (get a script if possible) in any one scene before we shoot. If it appears we might need more wireless then I supply with the kit fee they wanted then I tell the producer/UPM of the potential issue. My day rate and kit fee does not get you infinate wireless. I have learned to make it VERY clear how many wireless they get with what they are paying.

Sorry to hear about a tough day. As long as you communicated the issues, your responsiblity for the junk they got is done. Have a beer and put it all behind you. :beer:
 
Placeslost said:
I guess just boom from eight or however many feet away and when the director complains about the audio being bad, just tell him it's no ones fault but his own.

I was just sound recordist on a short where the director spent 16,000.00 and refused to spend any more then 300.00 on audio rentals (for the entire seven day shoot). He'll get what he paid for, there wasn't anything else I could do about it.
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Probably the worst advice I have ever heard. The only one that is going to be blamed is the sound mixer. Producers, directors, DPs the majority are all ignorant when it comes to sound. There are exceptions, but it is never the sound mixer's duty to teach the director or production a "lesson". A sound mixer can either "do it" or "can't". "Can'ts" are acceptable as long as they are conveyed properly and beforehand.

You're not in position to change shots nor should you complain about the director's shot list. you should only inform the director. he should be comtek'd at all times anyway, same with the scripty. Give him options, but according to your post, there is no one to blame but yourself.


Matthew, please take this as constructive criticism as I have been in your shoes at one point in my life. Your reputation is on the line at all times regardless who is at fault.

- you were unprepared for the scene. did you not read the script or more importantly get the shot list? Only (2) G2s? You have schoeps, 442/744t and carry G2s? Bite the bullet and get some lectro 411s or rent them at least. G2s will work occassionallyt but do you want to risk RF splats when your reputation is on line? you have a good mic/mixer/recorder but consumer radio mics.

- If rental fee was an issue, then it should have been brought up from the beginning, if after the fact, then the mixer needs to bear the cost to get the appropriate sound. Don't ever blame your inability to capture dialogue because of a rental fee. You should have not taken the job in the beginning or made it clear that you had insufficient and inadequate equipment .

- impossible sound acquisition is understandable and needs to be conveyed that ADR is necessary. However, your wide shot should have been Radio mic'd from the beginning. I would have also wild line it as well immediately after since the lav creates too much of a forced perspective. Good actors with proper cadence and training can deliver the same line over and over.

I would find a mentor to teach you the ropes and more importantly set politics/etiquette. Here in hollywood, one f up on the wrong project and you could be done.
 
While there is nothing wrong with those point Dean, it is coming from a position that does not take the budgetary concerns into account. I don't know what rate they aggreed to but assuming this was your typical Craiglist type independent feature, the pay was was WELL below a professional day rate.

For that type of job, the producer is lucky if he just brings a ME66 and Mixpre. So yes, he needed to communicate with the producer beforehand about potential deficiencies in what he could bring but that does not mean he should have taken on debt to rent the equipment himself or turned down the job completely.

This is not RAMPS and the type of jobs/movies discussed in here are almost never well funded, well equiped productions.

Cheers
 
Too true. Dean your points are valid, but I doubt Matt could have done much more than what he did given budgetary restrictions on that show.

He mentioned he was doing it for experience and not money, so I imagine the pay was horrible anyway.
 
Even though you used schoeps inside you could use wireless outside , it sounds different but different location no?? I was also thinking if it was long shot with wide lence ou would not really see actor's face would you . Dialogue could be done in close ups and used for the master as well. That is the first thing that comes to my mind.
 
first off this was a 2 day shoot on a no budget short. i didn't even find out about this shoot until like wednesday of the same week where the shoot was to take place on saturday and sunday.

i was getting lodging. thats it. no pay whatsoever.

the original scene was for all of this dialog to take place in a car.

i have a sanken cub-01 which is a superb car dialog mic and it has given me extremely great sound in the past.

at the last minute the dp realized that they had no polarizer and that they would only see 10% of picture through the windshield because of the reflections and the bright daylight.

so the walk and talk from the front door was a scene that was made up on the spot and NOT something that was in the script.

my suggestion was to put one of the wireless (or one of the cos-11's) on the mother but close to the side where the father was so it could pick up both parents. and put the second cos-11 on the child.

the thinking being that the father's voice is louder and the mothers is softer.

i have the plug on transmitters so i could have easily made both cos-11's wireless.

but the director said that unless i had a lav for each actor it was unacceptable.

you need to keep in mind, this is a shoestring short where nobody was getting paid except for the rental of a light kit which was gotten at next to nothing.

i'm of the opinion where if the sound i'm going to capture is going to be absolutely useless i will not capture it.

i have always been able to find a perfectly acceptable compromise that lets me get really good sound and get the director/dp the shot they want/need.

in this case there was zero compromise on the directors part.

she wanted the shot to be super wide and the framing was such that the boom mic at best would be 8 to 10 feet away from the actors AND it would be coming at them from a right angle when their dialog was straight ahead of where they were walking.

if i could have even gotten it from straight ahead of them from 8-10 ft. there was a chance i could get it, but not if its coming from the side.

and on top of all that i had to be physically 3 ft or less off the ground while moving with the actors and holding out the boom!

again, the only thing that might have even been close to working would have been laying on a little red wagon with a rope attached and having someone pull me across the lawn with a rope tied to the wagon.

it was purely a crazy amount of restrictions put on my options for getting the sound

if the shot could have been either framed so i had a little more headroom, or a little more room on the side of the frame i could have done something.

i think the best compromise would have been to start with the super wide master but then goto a medium shot where i could have just done the boom and walked along with the actors.

matthew
 
hiding shotgun somewere around the house close enough to the actors?
P.S. I wonder how much experience that director had but probably very little if she couldn't compromise the shot.
 
i guess i always ASSume that with a low budget/no budget indie, especially a short shot over 2 days, that there is no time/budget for adr.

just getting the actors back again to do the adr is probably a feat in itself.

in this case it was a matter of the breaking it down to its simplest form...

a shot's framing is a simple matter of a box, or rectangle if you will.

if you have to make up a shot on the fly because you can't get the shot you wanted right from the get-go it seems that you should be a little bit flexible since your doing a shot that didn't even exist 5 or 10 minutes ago!

so anyway, the shot's framing is a rectangle...

if you have so much space on the top, bottom and left of the frame that the boom mic would be a minimum of 8-10 ft away, and the right side of the frame is the house and the talent is walking throughout the entire shot, so you can't do the boom from inside the house.

in a perfect world i would have had 3 or 4 sets of lectrosonics...the SM, or at least the UM transmitters, with sanken cos-11 lav's and ucr 411 or at least 401 receivers.

but seeing how i already have a $10k sound kit between the SD 442, SD 744t, Denecke ts3 slate, sennheiser 416, schoeps cmc6/mk41 :), sanken cos-11's (2) and a sanken cub-01 and oktava mk-012 (2) and a ktek 152ccr boom with the ktek zeppelin.

and i am doing this short just for meals and lodging!

i mean i'd love to buy a couple sets of the lectrosonic and i will be buying at least one set to get started pretty soon but the SM transmitter is $1,206 and the UCR 411 receiver is $1,625 and oh yeah a sanken cos-11pt wired for lectro $300

so that brings us up to $3,100 and then in this case i would have needed 3 sets!

what would have happened if i had 3 sets and we had 4 actors? would i get grief because i didn't bring 4 sets?

i'm done venting. its just that i was made to feel like i was unprepared for this scene which one last time, wasn't in the script! and was part of a 2 day zero budget shoot.

oh well. on to more fun things like explaining to people which end of the mic goes towards the talent and which end comes with the cable...

matthew
 
matthewd5 said:
and i am doing this short just for meals and lodging!
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Been there, not going back. I can get meals and lodging at home.

I learned the hard way to never take on a job that won't cover the equipment costs. Wave your labour fees if you want, but never give `em the gear for free. After all, you had to pay for it.

Sometimes it can be difficult to explain this to indie producers, but as soon as you flip the latch on your pellican case, that gear is costing you money personally. When you allow a production the use of your equipment without compensation, you are funding their film out of your own pocket. Even if you would otherwise not be using the gear on a job, just openning that case subjects your investments to wear and tear, potential damage, and general depreciation (to say nothing of expendables like batteries).

If the project really has that much merit, you should be approaching it as an investor rather than a volunteer, and if you are a volunteer you're motivated by altruism rather than ambition. There are plenty of ways to gain production experience without giving away what experience and equipment you've already worked hard to acquire.

I guess the bottom line is that when you give it away for free, it doesn't really hold any value to the recipient.
 
thats a very good point, and is a thread all on its own. personally, i do my very best not to ever let my gear get used unless it generates some cash. its sometimes hard given the crap we are given to work with here in SA sometimes, but its a very important thing to make sure people realise that you might be a charity, but wear and tear will still burn you eventually unless you charge NOW.
 
SMuir said:
I learned the hard way to never take on a job that won't cover the equipment costs. Wave your labour fees if you want, but never give `em the gear for free. After all, you had to pay for it.

Sometimes it can be difficult to explain this to indie producers, but as soon as you flip the latch on your pellican case, that gear is costing you money personally. When you allow a production the use of your equipment without compensation, you are funding their film out of your own pocket. Even if you would otherwise not be using the gear on a job, just openning that case subjects your investments to wear and tear, potential damage, and general depreciation (to say nothing of expendables like batteries).
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:thumbsup:

As I was reading Matt's post I was wanting to say the same thing.

Matt, you are too good for that kind of stuff. If the work field is really sparse there in Maine and you want to do stuff for free to build your resume, DO NOT take your equipment unless they pay for it.

The value of giving away your services for free can be debated and discussed but free gear? No way! Wireless more then anything else. You put your $1000 TX on some noobie actor who probably thinks it can be bought at Radio Shack so treats it with as much respect as that...forget it. I once had two wired up actors who thought it would be fun to "bump chests" as they were getting ready for scene. I tried to tell them to stop but later they were at it again. I was younger then, now, if I don't have a copy of the productions insurance, I would demand cash from the actors/directors that they would get back at the end of the day if my equipment was still working. Funny thing though, professional actors never do stuff like that. They actually have some respect for the people around them (99.9% of the time).

What Smuir said about using your equipment is actually paying to work on their movie is dead on. Is the production looking for your services or just your equipment?

The ultimate irony is almost everytime you lower your rate or do it for free you get even less respect on set then when you get paid (which I get the impression is what you just experienced). The ultimate slap in the face is their loyality to paying for your service when they finally do have a budget is almost always forgotten.

Everyone has to do do the credit/copy thing a bit when they are getting started but you need to start driving up your rate to a respectable level as soon as possible. They are not going to just start offering to pay you, you have to demand it.

Cheer up Matt. You are too good to be paying to work. Don't forget that next time.

:beer:
 
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