16mm newbie questions

B

BOG

Active member
I'm toying with the idea of buying a 16mm. I have done some research and it looks like it's coming down to the Arriflex S or S/B or the Bolex Reflex.

1. I like the Arriflex S and S/B, but have read that NYU bought up most of the spare parts on the market. So the S could be a problem should something go worng with the camera. Thoughts on this?

2. Are the alluminum standard mounts on the S something to be worried about if the camera is bought from a reputable place like VP. Or would be be a better idea to go ahead and spring for the S/B which has a steel mount?

3. One of the Bolex cameras I was looking at had a Angenieux zoom lens with what looks like a "crank" on the left hand side of it. I have seen the same lens without it. Can anyone tell me what this "crank" is for?

http://cgi.ebay.com/BOLEX-REFLEX-4-...oryZ4691QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

4. Are these Angenieux zoom lenses any good?

5. Anything wrong with the Bolex crank, Vs the Arriflex motor driven if I have no plans for using anything other than the 100' reels? It seems to me the crank is fine if shooting a few seconds of film here an there of nature or whatever. No plans for any feature films.

thanks
 
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Dude, dont spend near that for a standard 16mm. Get a Krasnogorsk-3 camera with S16 gate for less and shoot in widescreen. Sure the K-3 sounds like a jackhammer but use a Marantz digital recorder for scratch track (or DAT) and dub it in post.

I did some research regarding how much it would cost for me to do a 10 minute short in S16, and I found following info.

For $3,500, I could get:
Brand New K-3 package with filters and S16 gate from K3cameras.
Brand new incident light meter from Ritzcameras.
Marantz digital sound recorder from Guitar center.
1 GB Cmpact Flash card for Recorder (gets you over 1 hour at 16-bit wav quality).
Pro8mm.com film package with 2000' 16mm Color neg film (55 minutes worth, so for me would be 5.5:1 shooting ratio), develop with print, color correction and telecine, and transfer to MiniDV tape.

Cheap MiniDV camera (if you're like me, you like to perserve the heads on your higher end DV gear.)

I think that makes shooting with S16 a serious bargain. You can get 55 minutes of S16 stock on MiniDV to capture into your favorite NLE and your good. Not to mention, you still have a first print to work with if you wanna go that route instead.
 
The Bolex is a spring driven mechanism, which means you don't need electric power. The crank on the side is use to rewind the spring. As far as the Arri S versus the Arri SB, I would go with the Arris S, it is more versatile since you can use both 100 ft and 400 ft rolls. Also it was always a more popular camera than the SB. I doubt NYU bought most of the spare parts. Trust me spare parts will never be a problem. Angenieux zoom are very good. But prime lenses are better. The Arri S is a better camera than the Bolex, it is actually one of the best 16mm camera ever made and built like a tank. The Bolex is a bit more practical, you can carry it in a bag pack.

I am actually selling my Arri S on ebay if you are interested (20 hours left).

An other camera you might consider is the Beaulieu R16, it's not as well know in the U.S but very respected in Europe. It is a great camera (I have one as well, and not selling this one) and very versatile it's also a more modern design than the Arri or the Bolex. Eclair and Aaton (the rolls royce of 16mm camera in my opinion) should be considered as well.

I think you need to figure out what you want to do as some cameras will be better suited than other for certain tasks. The Arri S is great, but it is a very heavy camera. The Bolex or the Beaulieu on the other hand are much lighter and smaller.

Hope this help.
 
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I think BOG was asking about the crank on the lens itself. The hand-crank on the lens is for adjusting the focal length of the lens. It's similar to the zoom lever on the K3 lens.
 
BOG: Have you shot film before? If not then maybe you should get a super 8 camera, cheaper cameras and film stock. But if you're dead set on 16mm then get a K3.

Kev
 
No, I have never shot film before. I have an XL2 and a GL2. I'm the type of person that likes to be "different". If everyone has a red motorcycle, I'll buy blue. If having short hair is popular, I'll grow my long. If having a big SUV is popular, I buy a small car.

It's seems now days with the technology, every kid and their grandma has a digital video camera and can make a video. Not to mention I'm sick of buying cameras that are outdated within two years and the camera is only worth about 1/3 what I bought it for.
It's time to once again be "different". I want a 16mm. The camera will be different, it won't be outdated next year and should hold it's value. It's been around forever, so it's not going anywhere soon.
 
Heh, people who try to be different usually are just like other people who are trying to be different. Plus I believe many would shoot 16mm if they could afford it. I would. Who wouldn't?
 
Mtech said:
Heh, people who try to be different usually are just like other people who are trying to be different. Plus I believe many would shoot 16mm if they could afford it. I would. Who wouldn't?
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If you don't have anything nice to say or feedback on the subject, please stay out of the thread.
 
Different or not, if money is a factor, get a K-3 with an S16 gate so you can shoot widescreen 16mm on the cheap. No other S16 camera comes close to as good of a value as the modified K-3. If money is no object than shoot on 35mm and be done with it.

Why get a standard 16mm when you can shoot single perf 16mm with enhanced res? The aspect ratio for S16 is 15:9 so its really close to HD standands. Shooting S16 is the most VERSATILE method of any because of all the options available and the relatively low cost. You can transfer to tape, MiniDV, DigiBETA, or blow up to 35mm print. Only drawback is that S16 in itself is not a projecting format since it doesnt have room for sound.
 
Lakmir0 said:
Different or not, if money is a factor, get a K-3 with an S16 gate so you can shoot widescreen 16mm on the cheap. No other S16 camera comes close to as good of a value as the modified K-3. If money is no object than shoot on 35mm and be done with it.

Why get a standard 16mm when you can shoot single perf 16mm with enhanced res? The aspect ratio for S16 is 15:9 so its really close to HD standands. Shooting S16 is the most VERSATILE method of any because of all the options available and the relatively low cost. You can transfer to tape, MiniDV, DigiBETA, or blow up to 35mm print. Only drawback is that S16 in itself is not a projecting format since it doesnt have room for sound.
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Thanks for the info. I'll look into the K3.

So I could instal this gate and it would shoot 16:9 the same size as my XL2? I don't need sound for what I would use it for, so that's not a problem. I read that you can use 35mm SLR camera lenses on the K3. That's cool.

As far as editing. I just have the film transfered to miniDV and edit on my NLE? From there I could just export to DVD?

What abouot mounting it to a tripod? I can't find any picture of the bottom.

thanks for the tips.
 
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You can shoot widescreen which, when transfered to miniDV would be 16:9.

You can import it to your editor just like you do other footage now.

The K-3 has a standard tripod thread on the bottom.
 
I have been down that R16 road and sure there´s nothing wrong with shooting R16 but every time you´re rolling film in the camera you´re going to think I should have gotten a s16 camera instead. I owned a BL16 but still rented S16 cameras to get that extra quality by using a bigger neg. Now I own a Aaton LTR 54 and can actually make money by renting it to productions that I work on as a 2nd camera when it´s only needed a day or two and the best thing is that I don´t have to rent cameras for my own experiments any more. B.t.w. if you don´t rush and buy the first camera you´ll find and instead wait untill you find a good deal, then you can actually get back more than you bought it for when selling it. I paid $1800 for my 16BL back in 2000 and sold it 6 years later for $2500. And even further back in history I owned a Bealieu R16 that I bought for $500 and sold for $1200. I found a good deal and paid about $3500 for my Aaton LTR 54 (s16) and I don´t think that I´ll loose anything on that either if/when I decide to sell it. As you can see the value on the filmcameras don´t drop like video cameras do. I do however belive that we soon will see a drop for R16 cameras and for the more expensive s16 cameras that costs around $7000-$12000.
 
Hazz, you are right but I was actually telling him to shoot S16 instead of 16. I was pointing out though that if you don't have a lot of money for s16 great that you can pick up a modified k-3 with S16 gate for around 800-900 USD. It aint the best but it is better than not shooting s16 at all.
 
BOG said:
I'm toying with the idea of buying a 16mm. I have done some research and it looks like it's coming down to the Arriflex S or S/B or the Bolex Reflex.

1. I like the Arriflex S and S/B, but have read that NYU bought up most of the spare parts on the market. So the S could be a problem should something go worng with the camera. Thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

That is a wonderful urban legend, but like many urban legends, it is not true. I service Arriflex 16S, S/B, and St cameras, and except for the really early ones with Zeiss viewfinders and flat doors, I rarely have a tough time getting parts, and with a full machine shop, any parts I cannot get from ARRI, I can make myself. I would not let that stop you from considering an Arriflex 16S, S/B or St camera.

BOG said:
2. Are the alluminum standard mounts on the S something to be worried about if the camera is bought from a reputable place like VP. Or would be be a better idea to go ahead and spring for the S/B which has a steel mount?
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The big advantage of the S/B is the one bayonet mount. Not so much because it is steel, but because it allows you to use newer lenses that are made with the ARRI bayonet mount instead of the earlier ARRI standard mount. Both cameras will produce incredible images as you can see from the www.Arri16S.com web site. And both cameras have no problem producing 16:9 images, even though they are both regular 16 cameras. By the way, the film clips on the web site were shot with an Arriflex 16S, and lenses with the ARRI standard mount.

BOG said:
3. One of the Bolex cameras I was looking at had a Angenieux zoom lens with what looks like a "crank" on the left hand side of it. I have seen the same lens without it. Can anyone tell me what this "crank" is for?
Click to expand...

The Angenieux 12-120 came with a crank on the side of it to crank the lens through the zoom range. Many people take this crank off.

BOG said:
4. Are these Angenieux zoom lenses any good?
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The interesting thing about the Angenieux lenses is that some of them are fantastic, and some of them are not so good. It really depends on the individual lens. If you end up buying an Angenieux zoom lens, the best lens tech in the United States for all things Angenieux is Paul Duclos of Duclos Lenses in LA.

BOG said:
5. Anything wrong with the Bolex crank, Vs the Arriflex motor driven if I have no plans for using anything other than the 100' reels? It seems to me the crank is fine if shooting a few seconds of film here an there of nature or whatever. No plans for any feature films.

thanks
Click to expand...

The Bolex is a fun camera to play around with. It was sold for many years and is more of a hobbyist camera. The Arriflex 16S, S/B and St were all professional motion picture cameras, so the build is superior, and in my experience, the image quality is quite a bit better.

Hope that helps,
-Tim
 
You're welcome. And if you would like to learn anything else about the Arriflex 16S, S/B or St cameras, stop by www.Arri16S.com and have a look around. We are always happy to answer questions and you can email us here.

-Tim
 
My first camera was an Arri 16 S/B - I cannot emphasize enough the benefit of that bayonet mount! This camera, with torque motor, will absolutely run the 400' mags or 100' sealed spools.

It is a simple camera to load and operate. For sync sound, you'll need to do some work to control the (I find) pleasant whirring sound of the SB. It certainly doesn't sound like a Panaflex fluttering, but it is far quieter than a Scoopic or EBM.

Also, if you're serious about sync sound, you'll have to rent or source a crystal motor. Almost none of the "packages" from AGE or B&S come with one unless you ask specifically for them to find you one.

Robert Rodriguez used an SB on El Mariachi with some modest success, but even he got wise and eventually switched entirely to HD. Yeah... I did.

e
 
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