24PA sucks.

I've had similar problems. I was getting time code break issues all through capturing, though - as far as I could tell - there was no actual break in my time code in the footage as shot.

I also had to render every clip when I put it into the timeline, and also anytime I moved them, added a transition, etc. Every simple little thing required rendering, which was very annoying and time consuming. Luckily it was just a short 5 minute piece.

I'm on the same system as rcbrown23 - powermac G5 dual 2.0 with 1.5 gigs RAM.

Like others, I am beginning to think that shooting in regular 24 would be a lot less hassle.
 
Bus No. 8 said:
I also had to render every clip when I put it into the timeline, and also anytime I moved them, added a transition, etc.
Click to expand...

That sounds like your sequence wasn't set up properly and that you were dropping 23.976 footage into a 29.97 timeline.
 
People -- it's NOT that hard!!

Do some reading... try to understand what FCP is asking you to do... and take some time understanding what the DVX is doing.

Posted this once before, but maybe it's time again:

Ok -- I've explained this a bunch so I think I'm good at it. I'm not gonna cover everything... google's your answer there... but this will get you close. Plus, I'm not gonna guarantee my facts here...

So -- The DVX can shoot 24 frames of video per second. But the DV tape cannot handle capturing at 24 frames of video per second, so there are little Gnomes inside the camera that grab certain frames and pull them down (pulldown) and combine them on the fly to create interlaced frames inbetween the anchor frames so when all is said and done there are 30 (ish) frames of video per second flying onto the tape. The Gnomes are SO GOOD at what they do, they have it down to a rhythm... a cadence if you will... (hee... Pulldown Cadence).

There are two types of cadences these Gnomes sing. One is a simple 3.2 cadence (24P) and the other is more advanced... comes from a slovac rhythmic influence and that advanced cadence is 2.3.3.2 (24pA)

As you know, broadcasters here in America don't like anything other than 30(ish) frames per second, but for YEARS they've been showing films on tv... HOW? you might ask... well, but using relatives of these gnomes (though bigger) to create the 3.2 cadence. In the old days they called this telecine maybe because they were trying to create cinematic television?

IF you want to use your film for broadcast it is best if you shoot 24P mode. This way you'll edit the pulldown cadence of 3.2 in a 29.97 timeline and it will look film-ish but still retain the 30frames per second. If you need to go to film with that after the fact then you'll need to do a REVERSE TELECINE (which is another post, but look into Cinema Tools if you NEED to do this). ((BUT THIS TOO is a problem as you will edit across interlaced frames and disturb your cadence... BETTER EVEN STILL is to shoot 24pA and add pulldown back on at the end... more later))

HOWEVER -- If you'd like to go either to FILM/WEB/DVD and retain the true 24 frames per second shuttering that the camera gave you in the first place BEFORE the gnomes got in the way with their song, you'll want to REMOVE the ADVANCED PULLDOWN CADENCE. The Gnomes were very upset when we asked them to sing their Advanced Cadence and they chose a cadence that really looks crappy when played on a TV... so we REALLY want to get rid of it. Lucky for you, FCP can remove that cadence on the fly when capturing.

Choose DV/NTSC 48k Advanced Pulldown Removal capture preset and you're good to go. (you'll need to create a new one if you are capturing anamorphic material because for some reason FCP didn't come with THAT preset already... no problems, just edit and save.)

So, now you've captured the material shot with 24pA mode into FCP. The DVX was clicking away at 24 frames per second, the Gnomes were singing their Advanced Cadence and the tape was recording 29.97 frames per second... Then when you got home, the deck was reading 29.97 off the tape, FCP Anti-gnomes were busy ripping out the combined frames and leaving you with captured material of only 24 progressive frames per second (ish).

NOW -- create a sequence set to 23.98 fps and start editing away.

You can send it to the web at 24fps and it will look great! You can send it to DVD at 24fps and it will look great! OR you can even send it direct to film and it will look great! All in 24fps.

Should you want to go BACK to tape for backup... guess what... you'll need to hire again some gnomes to sing a song... your choice... Backup? Use ADVANCED CADENCE so you can remove it again later... FOR BROADCAST OR TV from tape? Use 3.2 Regular Cadence.

Hope this helps.

CaptM
 
Great info Cap't! Here's what I found tonight. Whenever there was a timecode break in the tape, the clip showed up as a 29.97 clip. So what I did was set in/out captuing points to avoid the time code breaks. It worked great/ My stupid fault for letting the timecode break in the first place.

Now, I can't seem to get the camera to set up at the last record point after checking footage. Can anyone explain that, I tried the button on the back of the camera & it didn't work. Once I get this down, it's smooth sailing into 24p land!!
 
Lake Films said:
Now, I can't seem to get the camera to set up at the last record point after checking footage. Can anyone explain that, I tried the button on the back of the camera & it didn't work. Once I get this down, it's smooth sailing into 24p land!!
Click to expand...


The only suggestion I have there is to make sure your camera is on VTR not CAMERA.

CaptM
 
can anyone apply this discussion to premiere pro 2.0? i have a bunch of 24pa clips that i captured into premiere and they appear as 29.97fps. this makes it so i have to render every time i move a clip onto my 23.98 timeline. it seems that premiere does not have a pulldown removal on capture function - or maybe i'm wrong. any pp2 users know whats going on?
 
dv416 said:
can anyone apply this discussion to premiere pro 2.0? i have a bunch of 24pa clips that i captured into premiere and they appear as 29.97fps. this makes it so i have to render every time i move a clip onto my 23.98 timeline. it seems that premiere does not have a pulldown removal on capture function - or maybe i'm wrong. any pp2 users know whats going on?
Click to expand...

Best to post this over in the premiere forum. I'm sure it does... you've just got to ask.

CaptM
 
CaptainMench said:
People -- it's NOT that hard!!

Do some reading... try to understand what FCP is asking you to do... and take some time understanding what the DVX is doing.
Click to expand...

It IS that hard, as I've done my reading, understand everything, set up my system correctly, and the problem remains.

It's not on my end... that I'm sure of. FCP just isn't properly reading the footage. Sometime's it works just fine, other time's I get issue's - - with the same settings, and the same clip.

Opening the clips in Cinema Tools isn't bad, so that's what I'm doing now.

-brown


p.s. Just to answer another question, if you have to render your footage when you drop it in the timeline, the settings are not right. If you control click your clip OR sequence in the browser> scroll to item properties> format> it'll tell you your fps.
 
dv416 said:
can anyone apply this discussion to premiere pro 2.0? i have a bunch of 24pa clips that i captured into premiere and they appear as 29.97fps. this makes it so i have to render every time i move a clip onto my 23.98 timeline. it seems that premiere does not have a pulldown removal on capture function - or maybe i'm wrong. any pp2 users know whats going on?
Click to expand...

This should be in the Premiere section, but no, PP 2.0 doesn't remove pulldown at capture. It removes it on the timeline in a 24p project, and it should do it without having to render.
 
if you have to render your footage when you drop it in the timeline, the settings are not right. If you control click your clip OR sequence in the browser> scroll to item properties> format> it'll tell you your fps.

Thanks rcbrown23 and others who addressed this.
 
Like I've already stated, my problem wasn't the settings it was when I got a time code break, it recorded as a 29.97. Strange but that's what happened.
 
I've had the exact same problem with the "break in cadence" errors. I know for a fact there were no timecode breaks. The only thing I think that could cause it would be the deck. I tried two different model prosumer jvc decks and they both had the same problem. I was scared to use my dvx as a deck..but I'd be willing to bet that it would get it right the first time.
 
Please read Noah's 24Pa sticky up above in this FCP forum. Nearly every question raised in this thread is answered in that one....

Also reread Captian Mench's longer post, it's spot on....


This is the summary of the sequence preset you should be using for caputuring 24Pa material....

Use this preset when editing with DV NTSC 23.98fps material with audio set to 48KHz (16bit for DV).

Frame Size: 720 x 480 Pixels
Editing Timebase: 23.98 fps
Field Dominance: None
Pixel Aspect Ratio: NTSC - CCIR 601 / DV
Anamorphic 16:9: Off
Video Processing: YUV allowed (8-bit)
White Point: White

Compressor: DV/DVCPRO - NTSC
Millions of Colors (24 bit)
No Data Rate Limit
No Keyframes Set
Quality: 100

Audio Settings:
16-bit 48.000 kHz Stereo


This is the summary of the capture preset you should be using for capturing 24Pa material....

Use this preset when capturing 24fps NTSC material recorded in Advanced Pulldown (2:3:3:2) mode with DV FireWire input and output using DV FireWire.

Using DV Video for video input
DCR-TRV10 using NTSC
29.97 frames per second
DV/DVCPRO - NTSC at Best quality.
24 bits per pixel
720 by 480
Using DV Audio for audio input
Input: First 2 channels
Rate: 48.000 kHz
Speaker: off
Volume: 100, Gain: 0
Removal of Advanced Pulldown and/or Duplicate Frames from FireWire sources is enabled.


Device Control should be set at Firewire NTSC NDF (non-drop frame)


And then video and audio however you need them to be given your personal editing set up.....
 
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I have found that if you recorded in 24pA and the quicktime clip is reading as 29.97, it's usually because it's the last clip on the tape and you captured some of the blank tape at the end or there was a break in the timecode. To fix this, open in quicktime pro and trim off a few frames off the end and simply save the clip. then re-import.
 
bgundu said:
I have found that if you recorded in 24pA and the quicktime clip is reading as 29.97, it's usually because it's the last clip on the tape and you captured some of the blank tape at the end or there was a break in the timecode. To fix this, open in quicktime pro and trim off a few frames off the end and simply save the clip. then re-import.
Click to expand...

This worked for me: I trimmed off the final few frames of my clip in Quicktime, re-opened it in FCP and, viola, the clip went from 29.97 to 23.98!

:dankk2:
 
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