Moving Pads for Sound Blankets??

C

ChillaVision

Member
I'm a total newbie but it doesn't take long to figure out that there are some sound experts hanging around here. And it doesn't take long to figure out that they have little sympathy for those of us trying to do the best we can on a very tight budget. If all we newbies had to purchase was a camera maybe we could afford the "minimum" SD 302 and the 416 mic.. I'm sorry, but after lights, light stands, a soft box, reflector, mixer (not a SD), mics (not a 416 among them... yet), earphones, boom pole, and on and on .... I simply cannot afford to go with the "best". So, my question is not will this work the "best", but rather, will it work at all.

I understand the usefulness if not necessity of having so-called "sound blankets" to absorb sound, especially with my less than ideal mics etc.. I know that there are special blankets made of special materials and that's what you pros probably use. And I know they cost a way more than I can afford.

Here's my question: Can I get reasonable (not necessarily best possible) results just using inexpensive quilted furniture moving pads? I don't see why I can't just get a few of these and add some grommets so that I can hang them if I want to. They might not be the the best at deadening sound (stopping reflections), but the large thick type should certainly help the acoustics in many indoor situations.
 
Well, I gotta say this is a very positive twist on the usual "is my $100 microphone the best thing ever?" questions in that you are recognising your weakness and looking to TECHNIQUE for answers. This is a very intelligent way to approach things.

Yes, movers blankets are fine, provided they are thick like Barry said. Acoustic treatment is one area where I dont place a whole heap of value in buying specialist products (at least, not for on set applications). I say this because having a carpeted room in a quiet neighbourhood with some soft furniture (beds/couches) inside is often enough to give good results if the correct mic choice is made (here Im not talking make and model, but polar pattern), and that mic is put in an appropriate place.

If you look to solutions like mic pattern choice, correct placement, and good recording environments you will come out with good to great results. Where the pro toys like 302 mixers and up, and 416 shotguns and up, and Schoeps 641 hypers come in is that they let you get better bottom line results when you have to compromise on placement, environment or pattern. And when you DO get optimal recording conditions, then your audio sounds INCREDIBLE.


Tip - if you havent bought the Oktava MK012 yet, do it. Its NOT expensive, and its probably the most critical swing factor in upping your indoor audio quality from a cheap shotgun.
 
Thanks much for the input. I just don't want to waste what limited funds I have on something that won't work. Like everyone just starting out I am trying to get the best tools possible for the funds that I have and very much appreciate all the good info info and advice here on the forum. I did purchase an Oktava MK012 mic and Sony 7506's for example. Also, I and my wife (who will be the real "sound" person) are reading Jay Rose's Producing Great Sound book.

Thanks for recognizing that while we are newbies, we are making an effort to learn. And, of course, it's all about technique. Quoting Walter Graff in one of his Bluesky Media articles: "Give a carpenter a $10 hammer and he can build a house. Give an inexperienced person a $65 stainless steel claw hammer and he can tell you he does carpentry work."

So, next question, once you have the large thick mover's blankets, what is the best way to suspend them. Would you use light stands with a "knuckle" (I think that's what it is called) or some other type of special clamp, or would you use a background setup with a pole stretched between two stands and then suspend the blanket from the pole? Or would you only drape the blankets around the room. I should have prefaced this with the situation is that you are shooting an interview in a room with poor acoustics.

If suspending the blankets gives better sound, what's the best way to do it?
 
What really makes the difference, is the surface area the blanket covers, and the distance from the speaker. As sound leaves a speakers mouth, the closer the blanket is to them, the less surfaces the noise can be reflected off before it gets absorbed by the blanket. Back in our old office, we used a small tiled bathroom as a vocal booth for doing music recordings. Normally, this would be a nightmare accoustically. But we hung a sleeping bag (inside out) covering the entire wall the singers were facing. All the sound projected in that direction would be absorbed, and the recordings really came out great sounding in there.
 
Chilla,

My response will be indirectly off topic, but I do feel I need to respond. Speaking for myself, the only thing I lose patience over is someone asking a question that has been answered many times already, and they could have found the answer simply by doing a basic search.

In addition, there is no one here I can think of that won't talk with you unless you buy the "best". If you look through the posts, there are many suggestions for budget equipment and ways to get better equipment for a lower cost. For example, pretty much everyone here recommends the Octava MK012 as a great low budget option to the Schoeps 641. Also, there are many posts that talk about the 4073a as being an excellent choice.

What you will see here are strong reactions to mics that are perceived (usually via marketing and/or brand name) to be good, when they're not. For example, the Sennheiser ME66. Way too many people come in here, having spent way too much money on this mic, and then don't understand when we talk honestly about our experiences with that mic (or any other mic).

And, there is a great sticky at the top of this forum that offers different options for audio packages in various price ranges.

What you will also see here is "been there, done that" type of experience. When someone recommends that you get a real boom pole instead of trying to make one from a painters pole, it is usually accompanied by an explanation of why.

And, finally, what we often see here are folks that treat sound as an after-thought. Usually, it goes like this: "I just spent $5000 on my camera, $2000 on my lights and other stuff, so I can't afford much for audio. I want to get great sound, but only want to spend $500 - tell me how". I think it is a natural reaction to read a post like that and basically say "for $500 your sound will be crap".

Okay, now that I have gotten that off my chest, let's get to the topic at hand - moving blankets. Yes, moving blankets work well as sound blankets. But, you want the good, thick ones, not the thin ones. And, if you have an option, get them in both light and dark colors. Your lighting team will thank you. I think there was a thread here a few months ago about this, with some great, low-priced options.

Okay, found the thread:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=56725&highlight=sound+blankets

Lots of different options for where you can buy inexpensive moving pads/sound blankets. Check it out. (Oh, and btw, it took be about 2 minutes to find the thread, which is interestingly enough, entitled "Sound-Blankets". The search feature here really works).

Phil
 
ptalsky said:
Speaking for myself, the only thing I lose patience over is someone asking a question that has been answered many times already, and they could have found the answer simply by doing a basic search.
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Or, another one that causes people to sometimes lose patience is when the person asking the question just won't listen. They get an answer they don't want, so they think that if they ask the same question over and over, but in a different way, maybe someone will tell them that whatever they're thinking is "okay".

(sorry if this goes rant-ish, but ptalsky's hit on something here)

What you will see here are strong reactions to mics that are perceived (usually via marketing and/or brand name) to be good, when they're not. For example, the Sennheiser ME66.
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Or anything by Bose.

When someone recommends that you get a real boom pole instead of trying to make one from a painters pole, it is usually accompanied by an explanation of why.
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Exactly! Thanks for bringing this one up.

It's like the Britek thing. We recognize that Briteks ain't Moles, but for the price they're tolerable and actually, considering the price, they're a decent choice. But Home Depot worklights? Intolerable.

So do you need a $1,000 carbon fiber boompole? Maybe not. A cheap $59 aluminum boompole from Markertek can probably be pressed into service and get the job done. But a painter's pole? Come on... :)

There's obviously various levels of equipment, and we experiment with them, but seriously, there's a level below which it's just not worth going. Using a shower curtain as diffusion material in front of a light? NO! You're just asking for a fire, and it's not going to work well anyway. If money's tight, get a job as a P.A. on any decent-sized production and ask nicely and they'll probably dig up a scrap of 216 or 250 or Opal frost, and then you can be working with the real deal for free. With no fire hazard.

A lot of us have come up through the trenches, and we've tried to make do with all the makeshift solutions, and we'll tell you which ones are passable and which ones aren't worth thinking about. We're not "meanies", we're not "tryin' to hold someone back", we're just telling you from experience. A painter's pole as a replacement for a real boompole? No. (Get the $59 Markertek aluminum boompole instead.) Home depot worklights with hack-job cardboard barn doors? No. (Get Briteks instead.) Skateboard wheels and plywood instead of a big bulky professional dolly? Sure, that can work. Used furniture pads/moving blankets instead of expensive grommeted sound blankets? Sure. Those work fine. Just make sure they're thick and bulky. They don't even have to have grommets, you can hang them with spring clips you get from Home Depot for $1 apiece.
 
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Sorry I didn't see the earlier thread. I searched on "moving pads" on didn't see any results so I didn't realize this topic had been discussed.

I guess it all depends on your perspective. As a newbie reading through many of the past audio threads a common theme that I see goes something like "I have $500 to spend on a mixer is the XXXXX any good?" The response from the "pros" is, "spend a little more and get a real mixer like the SD 302", or "save your sheckels until you can afford a 302", "rent a 302 or hire a real audio guy", or "if you must spend only $500 on a mixer, get a used Shure FP33". (I dare you to even find a used FP33 for $500!)

Again, from the newbie's point-of-view, just because I saved up enough to stretch and purchase a $5K camera does not mean that I can spend $5K on audio. It doesn't mean I can spend only $500 total on audio either. I don't expect perfect audio for nothing, I just want to do the best job of capturing audio that is within my limited means. I am not a pro... I have never done any of this stuff before... I have never used a mixer of any sort before... No matter what mics and mixer I have I won't be able to get the sound that you pros will. I know that. I need to learn and gain experience... I just want to try and get started with tools that will give me a fighting chance of some limited success.

I have a $200 used Shure M367 mixer. I know it's probably a POS by pro standards, but for me, a beginner, it's something to get started with and to learn with. It fits into my limited budget.

With regards to boom poles, I haven't heard too many people say a painter's pole is the way to go. I pick up supplies very near to K-Tek so I stopped in there to learn about boom poles. I have a very inexpensive aluminum boom bole that I'm sure I will be very happy with. (And by the by, Brenda Parker at K-Tek is a great person to talk to and won't try to sell you more than you need. If you're just starting out like me, I'd suggest you give her a call.)

With regards to moving pads, here's what I've learned from some quick research. They are usually sold by the dozen and cost a little over $100. So they aren't very expensive. Good ones weigh over 80 lbs. per dozen (standard size, 72" x 80")and either all cotton or a cotton/poly blend. They are available, of course, from many sources and come in various colors, usually one light color side and one dark color side. To get spefic colors, for example, black and white, you would probably have to special order a run from the factory (most come from overseas, few are made in the US) and that would require a large quantity. Moving pads don't usually have grommets, but they wouldn't be hard to add.

movingpads.jpg


Finally, I'm not trying to offend anyone or look a gift horse in the mouth. I appreciate the advice given here. My only point is that from the view point of a newbie just jumping in it often appears that many pros forget that we newbies don't have deep pockets and we don't always need 302s, 442s, etc, etc.. It seems, from a beginners point of view, that we get hammered if we try to find ways to getting by making do with what we have or can afford. The objective truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
 
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ChillaVision said:
Sorry I didn't see the earlier thread. I searched on "moving pads" on didn't see any results so I didn't realize this topic had been discussed.
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One suggestion for new folks that are doing searches - search for the thing you want to look for in sound terms (i.e. sound blankets vs. moving pads, or boom pole vs. paint pole, etc.)

Chilla, not singling you out on that, just it is a more accurate way to search this forum, since most of the regulars that post do tend to refer to things from their sound perspective.

But, Chilla, I am going to single you out on this - as you read through, you will find there are good low priced options and bad ones. I, for example, had been using a Mackie 1204 mixer for quite some time, with great success. I paid ~$200 for it. Have I upgraded now? Yes, I now run a Mackie Onyx 1620 and/or an SD 302 depending on what I'm doing. Are either of the Mackies as good as a Cooper or Sonosax? Honestly I don't know, but my guess would be probably not. If you read through some of my posts, you will see my first mixer was a Behringer - which I paid about $100 for - and will honestly say, that was the worst spent $100 I have ever spent - it is CRAP!

So, as I said in my earlier post - scattered throughout all of the posts here are low cost options that work very well. Everything doesn't have to be the best to get good sound. You are taking some good steps, such as reading Jay Rose's book. But, I think you're being a bit to "black and white" when it comes to quality equipment. Within pretty much every price range there are good and bad options - which you can either learn from self-experience (if you're stubborn, like me - ;-) or you can learn from the experience of others. It's your choice.

But, ultimately, as Barry said, there is a spending threshold that, if you fall below it, you will find your sound to be truly lacking.

IMHO (or maybe IMNSHO) there is a point where it is better to postpone your project for a few months until you can save enough to get above that threshold. (I'm not saying you're below it now, since I don't know what your budget is).

Phil
 
OK Phil, I really think that we are on the same track and I don't mean to sound peevish, but I think your search suggestion is a bit off. I think we need to search in the terms that we think we find what we are looking for. Granted maybe I should have found the existing moving pad article by searching for "sound blanket", but think about it for a moment.

I was looking at video/film supply comply websites that showed "sound blankets" for $35-75 each and the only measured 30-40" wide and were 6 feet tall. It dawned on me "Why can't I just use a thick moving pad?" I realized I probably wasn't the first person to think of using moving pads. I searched DVXuser for "moving pads" and didn't find any mention of them in an audio context. So I went ahead and asked a question.

Now, in hindsight, I guess I should have realized that someone should have already discussed this. As I mentioned I know nothing of audio so I didn't know whether the thought of using moving pads was far fetched or something that occured to everyone. I should have been smart enough to realize that it was probably something that occured to everyone.

Also, I had no concept of how many threads there were on "sound blankets." I guess I should have looked. I could have searched for something like "alternatives to sound blankets" but I didn't think that type of search would do much good. In hindsight, if I had searched "sound blankets" I would have come up on the right thread. Admittedly, it should have dawned on me that there probably aren't all that many "sound blanket" threads so I should probably pull up all of them and go through them looking for "moving pads."

While that would have worked in this case, that logic simply isn't reasonable to apply to all searches. For example, if someone wants to know if an "avacado" can be used to replace a "microphone", the person would be much better off searching for the term "avacado" rather than "microphone." If the person searched for "microphone" do you have any idea how many threads he/she would have to read through looking for the term "avacado?"

Also, I don't argue at all with the concept of minimum spending threshold. And, I don't argue that everyone doesn't have the most expensive gear available. My only observation is that very often newbies are told that whatever piece of equipment or gear it is that they are asking about is poo-pooed and they are told to get something better. Again, I'm talking impressions here... and that is very often the impression I get went reading through the audio threads. Sometimes I wish someone could just say "Well, it's too bad you're stuck with a XXXX but here's how to make the best of it....."

I will try to be more careful with my searches in the future. And I won't ***** any more how the audio threads tend to seem to think that evey newbie needs a SD mixer, etc..

Honestly, I am not trying to not get along. I just think you see the threads through one color of glasses (rose maybe) and, as a newbie, I tend to see them through another color (blinders maybe).
 
Chilla,

How 'bout this? Search both ways, then you're happy and I'm happy and we'll all get along (I'm not trying to be obnoxious, honestly....it's the way I search, and I am usually able to find what I'm looking for this way.

What I think your seeing in terms of equipment suggestions is just honest feedback based on real world experience. For example, if you had said Rolls mixer, I guarantee you our Israeli friend would turn purple...based on real-world experience. If you said Behringer to me, I would say crap, based on real world experience. Where I think we can do a better job is in then offering alternatives in the same general price range. For example, if you say Behringer, I'll say crap and then say Mackie. ;-) Again, not the best mixer possible, but one that few if any would say crap about. But, part of what you see is frustration with others (not you...) that either refuse to listen to our suggestions, or ask the same question over and over again (as Barry said). If you want to see a perfect example of this, look at any thread started by Gorilla King (or just Gorilla...mostly I've tried to forget that debacle).

But, that's not to say that we won't still recommend SD mixers, 416's and CS3e's and Schoeps, Lectrosonics and Zaxcom, etc. etc. I know these recommendations have helped me in my planning, so when I make a concious decision not to buy "the best" I understand the trade offs.

Anyway, welcome aboard, and thanks for the research on the sound blankets. I actually got a call today where I may need some, and I'm fresh out -- left them on the grip truck of a project a couple of months ago, and they "disappeared" - darn those grips. ;-)

Phil
 
Chilla,

I think this is a pretty newbe tolerant group. There are places where you would get slamed for not having the most expensive XXX but not generally around here. For one thing most folks here are not working on the biggest budgeted films being made so almost everyone is trying to get the best value for the $. Now in the sound section the "pros" are spending most of there $ on sound equipment so they may not be real sympathetic to someone who says they spent all there money on a camera say and now wants top equipment and has no money to spend for it. But that isn't how you posted. And as a FYI Sound Devices is NOT the high priced spread. They are sort of the Mackie of field equipment. When the 722 came out it was in an area where the alternative was mostly in the over $7,000 price range. So while it may not seem like it to a non sound person it is the frugal suggestion. Now since then there have come some cheaper quality recorders so they have moved into the mid range but they were the bottom (price wise) for awhile. The big split on a lot of this stuff is over the ability to be battery powered and portable. The Mackie is a good mixer but you need AC or someone to modify it. Behringer is not too highly though of by many but it is one of the few (or was) mixers over 3 channels that could be battery powered and didn't cost over a grand. So it's all a trade off till you have Bill Gates's ATM card. I'm one of those "pro's" who get impatient with folks who don't want to spend any money on sound but want "great sound". They always seem to have money for cameras and other fun picture stuff, it's just sound that they fogot about till they screened and it sounded like crap. Just to be clear I don't think your in that category just pointing out why you see the reaction sometimes on sound lists.
Anyway I don't own a 744, I own a PMD671. It was a "better" value at the time for what I do. I use to build zeppelins for my mics till I scored a pair through a friend. Pretty much every one starts with what they can get and upgrades as they go. So nobody (well few anyway) are going to give posters grief for going the route we all did. What posters will get grief for is not respecting the work and talent that goes into getting a good sound track.
I work sometimes out of a studio that does a lot of national ads and some films and our Foley stage walls have packing blankets on them.
 
We all work within a given budget. As Noiz pointed out, if all the pros had unlimited deep pockets we would probably all be using DEVA recorders (except Roberto...little joke to the RAMPS users) and not talking up the 744. I would have a bunch of Zaxcom wireless (I have zero) and use Cooper mixers.

We all get that there are levels of this profession. Many of us have been at that low level and made buying mistakes that costs us in the long run. What really matters is, if you are trying to get into this business for the long run, is that long term return on investment. You don't see a local restaurant open up with crappy furniture and no interior design and have them say, "Well, we don't have the money right now to buy that stuff, so after we start making a profit we will fix up the place nice."

If you are serious about this field as a profession, then you need a business plan. If you don't know what that is or how to do it, you need to read a few books or start going to some night classes at your local community college. Freelance production work requires just as much business knowledge as production skills.

If you are not creating a business and just trying to learn and build up to a possible career then why are you buying a $5000 camera? The DVX, HVX, or any of the latest generation of cameras are great but you can pick up a used pd150, gl2, or Xl1s for almost nothing. They work fine and if you are truely on a budget then how about not blowing all your cash on the latest and greatest in prosumers cameras. I simply can't take seriously anyone who pleads poverty but owns the latest generation of cameras. It's not that you couldn't afford decent audio equipment, it's that you chose to blow your whole wad on something that will make you look cool for a year or two. So yeah, for some people our sympathy does not run deep. Call me a snob; I call you someone who bought an expensive shiny new toy to impress people and make you feel like a pro, despite having little to no experience. If you want to rethink your stance on me, I will reconsider mine on you. :love4:

To put mathmatically; you spent 95% of your dough on getting the best prosumer camera (100%) and now want to spend the remaining 5% on audio? That 5% will get you about 4% on your way to a decent sound kit. How about you spend 50% of your budget on a camera that is maybe 90% as good as the latest and greatest. Then spend the other 50% on sound equipment that will get you maybe 40% of what your average sound pro uses (more then decent for a budget one-man band starting out). That is someone on a budget who gives a damn about audio and doesn't just treat it as an afterthought. (of course throw in another 1% to buy some china balls and Home Depot worklights).

The brand new camera you buy today will be worth half that or less in 3 years. Your audio investment will probably lose about 20%, sometimes even less. So you think you can make back enough money to cover the depreciation of the camera to replace it in three years? Compare that to how much more you will need to invest to keep your sound kit up and working well. How much business is your one man band going to get when your audio is dog crap? Do you really think the picture on the pd150 compared to the DVX is going to be noticed by your clients but he will overlook how your audio sounds like it was recorded in a tin can?

I don't think anyone is trying to start a fight here but there is a discontinuity between the lip service people pay to how much they care about audio and what they are actually willing to invest in money and TIME. It just needs to be pointed out from time to time and it is certainly not directed all at one person but at an overall pervasive and dismissive attitude towards sound. "Attention must be paid!"

Cheers :beer:
 
PS:
And to the point of finding a Shure fp33 for AROUND $500, they are out there but it takes some patience to find these deals (read my signature). The Shure fp32a is also quite good and can be found for even slightly less. I never sold mine as it really is a decent budget mixer.

Cheers again
 
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