Updated Trailer Feedback?
- Thread starter e-steve
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MalcolmOng
Veteran
...Interesting topic for a documentary....I'm just gonna put that chicken drumlet down now... Btw you should post in the Screengrabs section to get more publicity
C'mon guys, could use some input!
This is my first doc, so I am just learning as I go...
Anyone who is interested in helping out let me know!
Updated here: http://www.inspiredthemovie.com
This is my first doc, so I am just learning as I go...
Anyone who is interested in helping out let me know!
Updated here: http://www.inspiredthemovie.com
Last edited:
david mollering
New member
What kind of help do you need? From the looks of the trailer you’re on your way. I love the whole look of the film. The message is inspiring. I just finished a film about a 400lb. guy who walks across the US, from San Diego to NY.
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
i produce and edit trailers for a living (sideways, clerks II, lady in the water, etc) and there's some technical problems with your cut. first, in order to emulate a real trailer, you can't have a fade out on the green band card. every trailer must show the green band card for exactly 5 seconds, followed by 1 second of black, then the trailer. also, i didn't check your running time but the mpaa limits trailers to 2m30s. nearly every trailer you see will fall between 2:20 and 2:30.
my notes on content:
the trailer doesn't really compel me to want to watch the documentary. try covering more of the interview shots with b-roll of those people engaged in a related activity. and give us a throughline to follow. the black gentleman seems to be the focus of your doc. let us follow his journey through the trailer while puncuating it with the stories of the other people, as opposed to introducing him at the end.
right now, the trailer just hits one note. i would suggest more music changes. give us a lighter, more engaging intro to these people. make us like them, not pity them. give us a laugh. we need to be on their side before we're expected to sympathize with their plight. then show us how their implementing the changes juxtaposed with bites regarding why they're doing it using a music cue with energy and momentum. and close on the results -- the accomplishments, the failures... but keep it moving along with sweeping, inspirational music like you currently have throughout the duration of the piece.
also, i would drop the "a documentary that will change your life" angle. people will naturally be skeptical and dismissive of that, especially with a topic like weight loss where that promise has been used to exploit and take advantage of millions of people already. i'd reword it to center on this being a doc about people inspired to change their lives.
my notes on content:
the trailer doesn't really compel me to want to watch the documentary. try covering more of the interview shots with b-roll of those people engaged in a related activity. and give us a throughline to follow. the black gentleman seems to be the focus of your doc. let us follow his journey through the trailer while puncuating it with the stories of the other people, as opposed to introducing him at the end.
right now, the trailer just hits one note. i would suggest more music changes. give us a lighter, more engaging intro to these people. make us like them, not pity them. give us a laugh. we need to be on their side before we're expected to sympathize with their plight. then show us how their implementing the changes juxtaposed with bites regarding why they're doing it using a music cue with energy and momentum. and close on the results -- the accomplishments, the failures... but keep it moving along with sweeping, inspirational music like you currently have throughout the duration of the piece.
also, i would drop the "a documentary that will change your life" angle. people will naturally be skeptical and dismissive of that, especially with a topic like weight loss where that promise has been used to exploit and take advantage of millions of people already. i'd reword it to center on this being a doc about people inspired to change their lives.
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Thanks for the feedback - that is the type of stuff that really helps I think...as we are too close to it to be objective enough...
The MPAA stuff is just for fun, and as my lawyer suggests, it needs to come out anyhow...but the info you provide is useful nonetheless - thanks.
As it stands the black guy was our first subject, so his journey is the furthest along, but it's not to say that he will be the focus by the time we are done.
I guess we were trying to get the point across that we were showing people doing different things to lose weight, so we tried to include a very broad mix of people. Did you pity the people in the film? I guess that might be a perspective if you've never had to lose weight before -- otherwise maybe the viewer would indentify with what they are saying?
I suppose this could mean that our doc will only appeal to those who would like to lose some weight...still trying to figure that one out.
Thanks again for your helpful insight.
-Steve
The MPAA stuff is just for fun, and as my lawyer suggests, it needs to come out anyhow...but the info you provide is useful nonetheless - thanks.
As it stands the black guy was our first subject, so his journey is the furthest along, but it's not to say that he will be the focus by the time we are done.
I guess we were trying to get the point across that we were showing people doing different things to lose weight, so we tried to include a very broad mix of people. Did you pity the people in the film? I guess that might be a perspective if you've never had to lose weight before -- otherwise maybe the viewer would indentify with what they are saying?
I suppose this could mean that our doc will only appeal to those who would like to lose some weight...still trying to figure that one out.
Thanks again for your helpful insight.
-Steve
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
yeah, legally it would have to come out unless you submit the trailer for mpaa approval.e-steve said:
cool. doesn't mean you can't use his journey as the spine of the trailer. that was just an idea for a structure.e-steve said:
actually, about six years ago i lost 70 pounds. i've since gained it back, so i know what these folks are faced with.e-steve said:
but by "pity" what i meant was don't expect us to invest emotionally in these people by trying to make us feel sorry for them (pity). instead, give us a reason to like them as people first. then when you show us the challenges they are faced with we will be on their side to an infinitely greater degree. and their successes and failures will have much more impact on us.
it doesn't have to be that way. you just need to figure out what would make this story appeal to the skinny people too.e-steve said:
Bus No. 8
Well-known member
I wasn't able to view your trailer (I'm at work), but from your description of putting the MPAA stuff in for fun, I wonder what the purpose of your trailer is? Is it simply to have something to show folks in general, or are you hoping to use it to raise completion funds, attract backers, festivals or TV (PBS, cable, etc)?
If your purpose is the latter, you really might want to check out a book called "Trailer Mechanics" by Fernanda Rossi. Her book is specifically about how to craft a trailer to use as a tool for generating funding and festival and TV support for your project. And, for these purposes, there are some rather specific rules to be aware of.
It is, perhaps, a bit touchy feely at times, but it also has some very good, solid advice and includes interviews with the folks who make the decisions at funding institutions, festivals and television.
We've yet to make a serious trailer for our documentary (we're shooting the trailer in September), but we're definitely using the book, because we want our trailer to be a powerful tool to help us complete the full project, and not just something to show our friends (I've been doing that my whole life and I'm ready to move on).
Good luck with your project, it looks interesting and I'll check out your trailer when I get to my computer at home.
Robert
If your purpose is the latter, you really might want to check out a book called "Trailer Mechanics" by Fernanda Rossi. Her book is specifically about how to craft a trailer to use as a tool for generating funding and festival and TV support for your project. And, for these purposes, there are some rather specific rules to be aware of.
It is, perhaps, a bit touchy feely at times, but it also has some very good, solid advice and includes interviews with the folks who make the decisions at funding institutions, festivals and television.
We've yet to make a serious trailer for our documentary (we're shooting the trailer in September), but we're definitely using the book, because we want our trailer to be a powerful tool to help us complete the full project, and not just something to show our friends (I've been doing that my whole life and I'm ready to move on).
Good luck with your project, it looks interesting and I'll check out your trailer when I get to my computer at home.
Robert
Thanks Robert - let me know what you think of it when you get to see it.
I was referring specifically to the MPAA screen as "for fun" -- for now at least. I stuck that in to make it look more official, but it will come out in the next edit.
LOL, another book! I just got 6 in the mail today from Amazon. Maybe I'll pick up that one too...thanks for the suggestion, and good luck with your doc!
-Steve
I was referring specifically to the MPAA screen as "for fun" -- for now at least. I stuck that in to make it look more official, but it will come out in the next edit.
LOL, another book! I just got 6 in the mail today from Amazon. Maybe I'll pick up that one too...thanks for the suggestion, and good luck with your doc!
-Steve
hawkmankt
Active member
I think it's a great idea and I'm sure the story is there and it's compelling.
I don't need all of the text though. It's too much and I don't mean to be rude, but it just looks a little cheesy and gets a little annoying after a while.
I think you need to step up the pace of the trailer a bit and maybe cut off a good 30 seconds. I found myself wondering how much longer it would be.
There also needs to be a balancing of the sound a little too. I'm just learning this myself. What I mean is that there are varying volumes and types of sound throughout and you need to normalize it a little. For example, the woman being interviewed with her son has a load of bass and volume compared to the other clips in the trailer and it really sticks out to me.
I'm definitely not putting your trailer down. I think the Doc looks awesome and your trailer just needs some polishing to let everyone know how great its going to be.
I don't need all of the text though. It's too much and I don't mean to be rude, but it just looks a little cheesy and gets a little annoying after a while.
I think you need to step up the pace of the trailer a bit and maybe cut off a good 30 seconds. I found myself wondering how much longer it would be.
There also needs to be a balancing of the sound a little too. I'm just learning this myself. What I mean is that there are varying volumes and types of sound throughout and you need to normalize it a little. For example, the woman being interviewed with her son has a load of bass and volume compared to the other clips in the trailer and it really sticks out to me.
I'm definitely not putting your trailer down. I think the Doc looks awesome and your trailer just needs some polishing to let everyone know how great its going to be.
Thanks so much for your feedback -- I know it's still rough around the edges and each time I get more feedback I'm able to refine it, so all input is appreciated.
I'm going to cut a lot of the text, as I'm getting the picture that it could be a little patronizing perhaps?
I'm going to try a totally different tone I think, maybe add a little humor...we'll see.
The Doc is pretty rewarding -- if you watch the trailer again that last reaction was the doc subject's mom when she didn't know he was in town and hadn't seen him since he was 60 pounds heavier...pretty cool experience to see. It has it's ups and downs, but when one of my subjects calls me from DC and tells me she just wanted to tell me that she's happy, it keeps me going...as it still is a long road ahead...
btw, I'm hiring this guy at www.sharpangle.com to help us with our biz plan so I'll keep you guys posted about how it works out.
Thanks again - all feedback is good feedback.
-Steve
I'm going to cut a lot of the text, as I'm getting the picture that it could be a little patronizing perhaps?
I'm going to try a totally different tone I think, maybe add a little humor...we'll see.
The Doc is pretty rewarding -- if you watch the trailer again that last reaction was the doc subject's mom when she didn't know he was in town and hadn't seen him since he was 60 pounds heavier...pretty cool experience to see. It has it's ups and downs, but when one of my subjects calls me from DC and tells me she just wanted to tell me that she's happy, it keeps me going...as it still is a long road ahead...
btw, I'm hiring this guy at www.sharpangle.com to help us with our biz plan so I'll keep you guys posted about how it works out.
Thanks again - all feedback is good feedback.
-Steve
fevercity
Well-known member
Unlike cygnet, I don't edit trailers but I do 're-purpose' them with clips and interviews for major studio shows. Basically, I see a bunch and edit using a lot of them. I do, however, echo many of his/her points. For now, don't even sweat the MPAA stuff.
This piece would work as a 'pitch reel' or 'sizzle tape' (maybe?) for investors or interview subjects that might be unclear on your approach to the material, how it's getting shot or where it's headed heart-wise. It's slow and purposeful (which is fine) to give people an idea of the bigger picture.
As far as a trailer -> short & sweet, best bites, best shots, 'cheat' scenes, make things happen even if they don't in the doc. Sorry, people, it's a trailer. This is show business, not show art. I hate that cliche but it's true.
Consider a 'radio edit' from your best audio. Don't even concern yourself with the video at first. Slam some of your best bites together. Tell bits of the story and start character-introduction just with audio. You should be able to 'listen to' the trailer and get most of it with no visuals. This will elininate the impulse to dumb it down with title cards.
This will also address the music change issue by itself. Once you've heard that track on its own for a while, you'll be motivated to make a music change. You will want an obvious 'punch-up' or quick switch to make a transition musically.
With the dialogue not tied to video, you won't feel restricted by keeping them on-camera for a whole thought or sentence. You'll find yourself cutting together some bites that really zero in on the struggle, setbacks and good times without staring at a talking head. It's ok if the audience doesn't even know who's speaking.
Now that you've got a solid audio bed with cut-up people talking and some music, you gotta cover it. Go find your best b-roll (gym, Jenny Craig, everyday life, family, anything other than the interviews). Use where appropriate. Save the intense stuff for the end, maybe start light with some humor. Once you're set on some shots' placement, you might consider having fun with them (slo-mo, black and white, whatever) - anything that might make your footage look good without detracting from the message or that's totally unmotivated. You can always play it safe and keep everything 'clean' fx-wise.
You're already headed in the right direction. You're seeking feedback and open to suggestions. That is very healthy. You cannot get married to a trailer. Shoot for 1:30 and you might hit aorund 2 mintues. You have to break out the axe for time.
I think you'll find that the radio edit is very freeing. You may begin to remember bits & pieces that someone said on different days. Even things taken completely out of context start seamlessly working together. Some consider this the "Franken-bite" approach but it can be a necessary evil.
On the last documentary I cut, an L.A.-based author (on whose book our research was based) was drunk by 10 in the a.m. His interview was a one-time-only deal and he was slurring and barely audible, often digging around for his own book to remember the topic at hand. As broadcast, he comes off eloquent, witty, even articulate and happy to be there! All thanks to some audio editing (as described) and creative use of b-roll.
Best Wishes........
fevercity
denver, co
This piece would work as a 'pitch reel' or 'sizzle tape' (maybe?) for investors or interview subjects that might be unclear on your approach to the material, how it's getting shot or where it's headed heart-wise. It's slow and purposeful (which is fine) to give people an idea of the bigger picture.
As far as a trailer -> short & sweet, best bites, best shots, 'cheat' scenes, make things happen even if they don't in the doc. Sorry, people, it's a trailer. This is show business, not show art. I hate that cliche but it's true.
Consider a 'radio edit' from your best audio. Don't even concern yourself with the video at first. Slam some of your best bites together. Tell bits of the story and start character-introduction just with audio. You should be able to 'listen to' the trailer and get most of it with no visuals. This will elininate the impulse to dumb it down with title cards.
This will also address the music change issue by itself. Once you've heard that track on its own for a while, you'll be motivated to make a music change. You will want an obvious 'punch-up' or quick switch to make a transition musically.
With the dialogue not tied to video, you won't feel restricted by keeping them on-camera for a whole thought or sentence. You'll find yourself cutting together some bites that really zero in on the struggle, setbacks and good times without staring at a talking head. It's ok if the audience doesn't even know who's speaking.
Now that you've got a solid audio bed with cut-up people talking and some music, you gotta cover it. Go find your best b-roll (gym, Jenny Craig, everyday life, family, anything other than the interviews). Use where appropriate. Save the intense stuff for the end, maybe start light with some humor. Once you're set on some shots' placement, you might consider having fun with them (slo-mo, black and white, whatever) - anything that might make your footage look good without detracting from the message or that's totally unmotivated. You can always play it safe and keep everything 'clean' fx-wise.
You're already headed in the right direction. You're seeking feedback and open to suggestions. That is very healthy. You cannot get married to a trailer. Shoot for 1:30 and you might hit aorund 2 mintues. You have to break out the axe for time.
I think you'll find that the radio edit is very freeing. You may begin to remember bits & pieces that someone said on different days. Even things taken completely out of context start seamlessly working together. Some consider this the "Franken-bite" approach but it can be a necessary evil.
On the last documentary I cut, an L.A.-based author (on whose book our research was based) was drunk by 10 in the a.m. His interview was a one-time-only deal and he was slurring and barely audible, often digging around for his own book to remember the topic at hand. As broadcast, he comes off eloquent, witty, even articulate and happy to be there! All thanks to some audio editing (as described) and creative use of b-roll.
Best Wishes........
fevercity
denver, co
Bus No. 8
Well-known member
Hey, e-steve - I'm afraid my DSL is too slow to be able to watch your trailer, but you're getting great advice without me, most particularly (or perhaps just most recently) from fevercity. Best of luck, I'll be anxious to see your finished piece when it gets distributed!
Robert
Robert
Thanks guys -- I'm going to adjust the buffer settings to people with slower internet can view it a little better. That's acutally good to know that not everyone gets to see it super smoothly...so I'll fix it!
It took a while to get the feedback coming, but every bit of input to me is valuable! Thanks again.
It took a while to get the feedback coming, but every bit of input to me is valuable! Thanks again.
You have a compelling subject but I think this trailer is a bit too heavy. I would internalize the story and make it about the people you filmed, not say it could change everyone who watches it... it may, but you cant say that =o) Not that losing weight isnt a real struggle but the trailer is edited in such a way that makes it seem like beating cancer. Find out what is possible? Too heavy IMHO. Maybe, they thought for THEM it was impossible. I can tell you if you plan the festival route, those are some cynical people so keep that in mind.
I think you will be far better served to lighten it up a little, that will make the emotion more impactful. Try to get some custom music and more b-roll. We want to SEE what these people are talking about... not just hear it, that does not make it real. Let their stories naturally inspire, not tell us how and why we should be inspired.
ash =o)
PS I finally am getting distribution for my first doc which you can see the trailer here:
http://www.flashenhanced.com/hanson/video/doctrailerfinal.htm
and first 8 minutes here:
http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2681277
Me second doc is in production and we already have a distro deal! Go figure!
I think you will be far better served to lighten it up a little, that will make the emotion more impactful. Try to get some custom music and more b-roll. We want to SEE what these people are talking about... not just hear it, that does not make it real. Let their stories naturally inspire, not tell us how and why we should be inspired.
ash =o)
PS I finally am getting distribution for my first doc which you can see the trailer here:
http://www.flashenhanced.com/hanson/video/doctrailerfinal.htm
and first 8 minutes here:
http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2681277
Me second doc is in production and we already have a distro deal! Go figure!
SomewhereinLA
Well-known member
I work for a company that do a lot of trailers as well... Here are my thoughts:
The audio needs to be mixed better, the levels are uneven and noisy at time. You want to engage the viewers not make them sleep...your type animation is painfully slow and so is the pace of your trailer... again it needs to be more engaging. Here is a suggestion:
Start with a :15 or a :20 and try to focus on one character. Tell one story and try to make it work without any music. I am not suggesting not to add music, but you don't want the music to carry the story.
think of it more as a sizzle reel for now.
The audio needs to be mixed better, the levels are uneven and noisy at time. You want to engage the viewers not make them sleep...your type animation is painfully slow and so is the pace of your trailer... again it needs to be more engaging. Here is a suggestion:
Start with a :15 or a :20 and try to focus on one character. Tell one story and try to make it work without any music. I am not suggesting not to add music, but you don't want the music to carry the story.
think of it more as a sizzle reel for now.
Thanks guys!
I haven't done much with the audio itself, but you comments make me wonder if I am shooting myself in the foot with mediocre audio? My assumption is there is a little more leeway with a doc, but I'm trying my best with my G2s - sometimes however I have to go with the on camera mike and there is background noise.
Congrats on getting distribution Ash - would love to hear more about how that process went for you - if you had time, you could email me directly...
I guess the whole concept of "find out what's possible" - is fundamentally what we've learned during the production of the film. That people are only inspired when they can clearly see what is possible as it relates to them.
For example, if you look at the picture in my signature, that guy lose 65 pounds in 6 months, and he's in fantastic shape, so the trick is making people understand and see how it was possible and seeing the possibility within themselves.
Thoughts?
I guess what a lot of you guys are saying is that it is not subtle enough (or not subtle at all!) -- I guess I should have faith that the message can be conveyed without the actual words being said...
Will let you know when I have another go around online!
Just updated my site with a few production photos if anyone is interested...
Thanks again guys. Your feedback is more valuable than you know.
-Steve
I haven't done much with the audio itself, but you comments make me wonder if I am shooting myself in the foot with mediocre audio? My assumption is there is a little more leeway with a doc, but I'm trying my best with my G2s - sometimes however I have to go with the on camera mike and there is background noise.
Congrats on getting distribution Ash - would love to hear more about how that process went for you - if you had time, you could email me directly...
I guess the whole concept of "find out what's possible" - is fundamentally what we've learned during the production of the film. That people are only inspired when they can clearly see what is possible as it relates to them.
For example, if you look at the picture in my signature, that guy lose 65 pounds in 6 months, and he's in fantastic shape, so the trick is making people understand and see how it was possible and seeing the possibility within themselves.
Thoughts?
I guess what a lot of you guys are saying is that it is not subtle enough (or not subtle at all!) -- I guess I should have faith that the message can be conveyed without the actual words being said...
Will let you know when I have another go around online!
Just updated my site with a few production photos if anyone is interested...
Thanks again guys. Your feedback is more valuable than you know.
-Steve
My doc was ALL on camera audio... a good sound guy can work wonders! I guess my point is that we are so used to being marketed to, that seeing something with such powerful words, screams INFOMERCIAL, not inspiring story.
I would rather hear that guy say, "I'm going to try, but I dont think I can do it..." and then see him gain confidence and do it than... see someone else say, "He will do the impossible and so can you.." Hope that makes sense, dont tell the story TO inspire people, tell THEIR stories and let people be inspired.
I do think you have a compelling and relevant story... just there, you are ahead of most docs...
ash =o)
I would rather hear that guy say, "I'm going to try, but I dont think I can do it..." and then see him gain confidence and do it than... see someone else say, "He will do the impossible and so can you.." Hope that makes sense, dont tell the story TO inspire people, tell THEIR stories and let people be inspired.
I do think you have a compelling and relevant story... just there, you are ahead of most docs...
ash =o)
Thanks Ash - when you say "a good sound guy can work wonders", do mean mean in post or during the shooting?
I hope you mean the latter, since I don't have the luxury of having a full time sound guy since I'm traveling all over the place for my shoots! I'm doing my best, but if you think I need to shift my spending on an audio guy let me know...
Thanks
Steve
I hope you mean the latter, since I don't have the luxury of having a full time sound guy since I'm traveling all over the place for my shoots! I'm doing my best, but if you think I need to shift my spending on an audio guy let me know...
Thanks
Steve