What is the point of having two hypercardiod mics?

MattinSTL said:
No offense but please ignore the advice above to get an OMNI... that is the worst advice ever.

All the issues about phasing, etc. will not be a concern for you... the most challenging issue with good video sound is not even what the mic picks up as much as it is about what the mic does NOT pick up! Pattern control is everything... it determines your wanted sound to unwanted sound ratio.

Music is recorded on a studio or in other environments where the music is either paid it's due respect as everyone is there to hear it OR it's 100X louder (relative to the mic) then the other sounds around it.

Nobody would go out in various less-then-perfect environments in the real world and then try to mic an ACOUSTIC instrument at distances that would allow you to videotape the instrument w/o seeing the mic...

Don't waste your $$$ on an omni. It will see very little use in the real world of shooting video.

There are only 2 omnis which see frequent use... a lav, because it can be put really close to the mouth (ON the person)... and an ENG stickmic like the RE50, because it's SO insensitive that it hears a tiny bubble of sound and the reporter holds it RIGHT to his mouth and then RIGHT to the other people's mouths... as you can see on ANY news report. So unless you want the mic to be a major feature of all your shots... or you can hide it ON the person (as in lav) then the omni will not get used.

Music can benefit from the acoustics of a space... dialog will usually be overcome by room acoustics... do NOT get the OMNI... I don't make this stuff up... The Schoeps CMC6 MK41 is the most popular dialog mic in the world... it's a hyper... do NOT get an omni... if you think you can boom with an omni you are going to be sadly mistaken with the $$$ you spend.

If you want to boom 2 or 3 people with one mic and they are very close to each other then you can go to cardioid... that still gives you a controlled pattern, but wider... and the rear lobe of the mic mostly ignores what is behind it... which still gives you some control over the acoustic space, and the ability to dial out some unwanted sounds... but by and far the practice is to use more mics with more control rather then one mic to chance it all. On this level the cardioid is an acceptable work-around to mic more people, as long as they are all still close to that mic.

If you have distances that will introduce phasing problems then phasing problems will be the least of your problems... mics need to be AT THE MOST 5' away from mouths... and they should be as close as possible... 2-3' is usually good.
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Thank you! I thought getting omni's sounded really fishy, because I'd done a lot of endless search options on dvxuser.com before even presenting my query, and all I got were reccomendations on hyper mic's. I believe with a matched pair of hyper oktavas that is within my budget and would serve my interior sound needs. I have a shotgun mic for exterior :) Again, thank you sir!
 
yeah, omni's? what the heck? :)

just to clarify something here:

the concept of a "matched pair" is largely irrelevant to a location film/tv sound recordist unless you are aiming to record truly pristine stereo ambiences or something like that.

i must say, I've never found myself saying "damn! needed a matched pair!", and it has especially not affected me when recording, say, two actors with two oktava's. I will go out on a limb here and say -we dont need that kind of accuracy-. although its nice to have a matched pair, if a matched pair was any decent amount more expensive than two singles, i'd take the singles.



ps - dude, no, you DONT need two hyper's, you need a boom. If you want to get fancy and do more complicated scenes with more actors, or intricate movement, then two mic's is just very handy.
 
timapter said:
yeah, omni's? what the heck? :)

just to clarify something here:

the concept of a "matched pair" is largely irrelevant to a location film/tv sound recordist unless you are aiming to record truly pristine stereo ambiences or something like that.

i must say, I've never found myself saying "damn! needed a matched pair!", and it has especially not affected me when recording, say, two actors with two oktava's. I will go out on a limb here and say -we dont need that kind of accuracy-. although its nice to have a matched pair, if a matched pair was any decent amount more expensive than two singles, i'd take the singles.



ps - dude, no, you DONT need two hyper's, you need a boom. If you want to get fancy and do more complicated scenes with more actors, or intricate movement, then two mic's is just very handy.
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Yeah I'm starting to assess my needs and it looks like I just need one hyper on a boom to get all the interior scenes done. Easy on the pocketbook and thanks for your opinion on matched mics. I can just pick up another if my needs change.
 
If you can afford the extra I would also say go for it. Get your self a stereo bar for the times when you need to do some stereo recording. Not that you will ever have time during a shoot or manage to get anyone quite, but if you are in the least intersted in doing ambiance recording having a stereo solution is quite nice. People might scoff at the idea having two 012's, but I would imagine you are like me and find yourself doing all kinds of different gigs and I can almost guarantee you will use both at some point, may not be critical but may be very handy.

Also, what's up with recomending Omni's? I have never used Omni's outside of a studio. Whats next? Figure 8 so you can accurately capture the jet that is flying over the talents head?

Kind of off topic, but I saw the boom op dip on Mythbusters last night and it appeared to be a Scheops. The thing is, they were in a public swimming pool. Interesting choice I thought, but the sound was good, though I am sure wireless was happening too. I would have reached for a shotgun first.
 
Yikes. I didn't realize that I didn't state "lav" in my original post, as that's what my intended recommendation was. My initial response post has been edited to reflect this.

As for phasing and if it effects your miking when using multiple miks, I also encourage you to do your own research. Shure is a good source for info. Phasing is a factor with multiple unidirectional mics picking up the same sound source. This is a fact.

**In no way do I recommend an omni mic for boom miking. An omni-boom mic is agreeably far-from-ideal in a boom situation, and I did not/do not/will not endorse an omni boom mic for this.**
 
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tallrd said:
Yikes. I didn't realize that I didn't state "lav" in my original post, as that's what my intended recommendation was. My initial response post has been edited to reflect this.

As for phasing and if it effects your miking when using multiple miks, I also encourage you to do your own research. Shure is a good source for info. Phasing is a factor with multiple unidirectional mics picking up the same sound source. This is a fact.

**In no way do I recommend an omni mic for boom miking. An omni-boom mic is agreeably far-from-ideal in a boom situation, and I did not/do not/will not endorse an omni boom mic for this.**
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ok that is making much more sense :happy:
 
timapter said:
yeah, omni's? what the heck? :)

just to clarify something here:

the concept of a "matched pair" is largely irrelevant to a location film/tv sound recordist unless you are aiming to record truly pristine stereo ambiences or something like that.

i must say, I've never found myself saying "damn! needed a matched pair!", and it has especially not affected me when recording, say, two actors with two oktava's. I will go out on a limb here and say -we dont need that kind of accuracy-. although its nice to have a matched pair, if a matched pair was any decent amount more expensive than two singles, i'd take the singles.



ps - dude, no, you DONT need two hyper's, you need a boom. If you want to get fancy and do more complicated scenes with more actors, or intricate movement, then two mic's is just very handy.
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practically speaking, this is how i work aswell, its not too hard to match the soud of two different mics, thats why you can use lavs in conjuction with shotguns/hypers for a scene, and use ambience and a little eq to get them sounding natural together. a matched pair is good for music and, like time says, if you want to be real picky with your atmoses etc, but generally its not a NEED.

icedentally, the term 'matched pair' means factory matched, ie. they were cosecutively made in the production line, so you'd have to buy them matched at the same time.

you can mostly get away with one mic on a boom, and using lav or planted mics for the far away lines, that are out of boom-swinging distance.
 
Droog said:
Kind of off topic, but I saw the boom op dip on Mythbusters last night and it appeared to be a Scheops. The thing is, they were in a public swimming pool. Interesting choice I thought, but the sound was good, though I am sure wireless was happening too. I would have reached for a shotgun first.
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Swimming pool = very reflective environment... shotgun would actually probably not be the best option.

-pasty
 
yeah, this matched thing is a load of poo. You can still record stereo with two unmatched oktava's. Its not like the world will explode...

Im not saying there's no point for matched pairs,(there sure is), but outside of a music studio lets be downright honest here and be clear that you CAN in fact record stereo with unmatched mics.

I also watch Mythbusters alot, and have seen primarily small form mics (i guess schoeps) on the booms for interiors, and shotguns of some kind WITH WIRELESS for exteriors. I'd be willing to bet that wireless lavs are the primary audio source, with the shotguns covering effects.
 
All those shows use a mix of wireless, hypers, and guns. That's my favorite part of those shows... I'd never miss an episode if they shot everything wide... so that the crew was always in the shots.

There's a geico or progressive car insurance commercial with Jeffrey Tambor (dad from Arrested Development) and they're showing clips of goofy stuff... in one shot he's got the two halves of his hair/head shampoo'ed up and he reaches up and brings down the mic to say "I'm not tingling" or something like that... and I paused it to see that it's a cheap pole, K-SSM mount, and Schoeps with Schoeps foam windscreen... I almost thought it was an Oktava.

Oh and matched pairs? No you don't need them... not even remotely. I did a stereo recording with two totally different mics just to prove a point to a friend of mine... and he didn't even know which mic was which... and this was an Oktava in one channel and a Rode NTK in the other... pretty darn far from matched pairs. Don't sweat that stuff.

Really I think that MOST people are way overthinking audio... at least in these forums... I mean you do need to do things the right way... so I'm all for the discussion, but they often head off in isoteric directions where the concerns aren't warranted by the real world results.

If you got a wireless lav, a hyper, and a shotgun... you're almost covered. Now as the scope of your projects gets more and more complex you just need to add more of those items and a mixer to mix them... and any gear to get mics where they need to be... meaning CLOSE... and that's when it starts to seem like it's getting complicated... but really it's not. It's still just controlling the same initial building blocks.
 
hear hear, and it all comes back to Oleg rocking the planet with an ME66 while I might suck with a CS-3e...

A guy actually said to me the other day "Dude, forget all this hectic advice, just work hard with what you have".

This is why I've wondered a bit lately whether mic advice isnt actually destructive - I see a LOT of value in buying low and working your way up because by the time you have a good kit, you also have the experience to use it right. While financially, I regret buying cheap wireless when I started, now a days, I really appreciate how good a quality system is, and why I like it.

Tim
 
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